4 ms·

Buyer beware, the overall quality is reflected in the low price.

by 1970-01-01 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Wait, I've seen this quality buyer beware scaremongering play out before: - German cars in 1950's - Japanese cars in the 1970's - Korean cars in the 1990's - Romanian cars in the 2000's - Chinese cars in the 2020's <--- we are here Seems like all those low-quality bogymen from the past improved over time and are now selling well in the western markets where they were once ridiculed for being knock-offs of low quality. What makes you think Chinese makers won't do the same? Especially in the current market where the average European is poorer than before and has less disposable income for flashy purchases from top brands. Most average cars today are just mass market commodities, like your fridge, laptop and microwave oven, there's no tech moat the western brands have other than marketing, perception and brand loyalty, all of which change over time.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  My understanding is that they were bad until they eventually weren’t. And that’s probably how this will go too.
  - sexy_seedbox 3y ago
    In Hong Kong, this is mostly true, BYD used to suck with lots of EVs breaking down ~5 years ago and there were a LOT less charging stations; their cars have improved dramatically since then.
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  Because China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. The first wave is always crap, the second wave is crap with a nice paint job, and the third wave is hit and miss quality. Perhaps in a decade they will be in a better position.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Because China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. So was Japan post-WW2, then their auto industry caught up and overtook most of the western brands. Korea did the same later. They had pretty junky cars by western standards but in the late 90's they opened R&D centers in US, UK and Germany and poached top people form top brands like BMW, and look at where they are today. China can speed-run this recipe now, in fact they're doing it right now. Several Chinese brands have R&D offices in Germany and UK for the same reason and will most likely expand with local manufacturing here as well to bypass import tariffs, maybe in Eastern Europe. It's gonna be a bloodbath for the European brands.
    - 1970-01-01 3y ago
      You're cherry picking data. What about Mexican cars? Or Russian? Or even South American? Lots of heavy industry and manufacturing occurs in those countries, however the market never makes it past their borders.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        You're so wrong with your whataboutism it hurts my little brain. Just because a country has a metal industry doesn't automatically mean they'll manufacture competitively successful cars for export, so yeah I'm cherry picking data, because it's the right data. Your whataboutism is baloney since Russia and Mexico never really had a competitive indigenous automotive sector that could compete with the big brands from Japan, Germany and US, so they're relegated to being manufacturing hubs for the IP of those foreign players (before the war for Russia). Ask yourself this: who's tech and industrial export development plan does China currently resemble, Korea and Japan's, or Russia and Mexico's? China can now manufacture 7nm chips domestically. Do you think they can't also figure out how to make a EV to western standards soon enough? Yeah, build quality will be shoddy at first, just like Japanese cars in the past, Korean cars in the past, and Teslas today (ha-gottem!) but they'll improve just like the rest did.
        3y ago
- bsder 3y ago
  Maybe. But China is also unique in that it will happily continue to produce crappy products indefinitely. See: Solar Cells for residential installs. It is, in fact, my fondest hope that China kicks the shit out of the big auto manufacturers. The big manufacturers have been dragging their feet on switching to EVs for decades now. EVs are simpler. EVs don't have to struggle to pass weird pollution standards. EVs can be built on a standardized base and have lots of interior customization. etc. The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. And it's those safety regulations that have always presented very large hurdles for selling cars in the US and EU.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. That's a soon to be non-issue. Chinese companies can build cars to western safety standards if desired. They have the money and the talent. The modern EV version of the famous London Black cab is made in London by a subsidiary of Geely[1]. Is that also not up to western safety regulations? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
    - bsder 3y ago
      Pumping a billion dollars into a British-based business for 20 years and producing about 10,000 cars total isn't going to even make the incumbents itch.
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    What China has is the ability to produce batteries at massive scale and thus undercut everyone else on pricing. Right now the legacy US companies can’t ship affordable EVs because they can’t source the batteries.
- Our_Benefactors 3y ago
  With the exception of Japanese, those are all crappy in terms of reliability.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    And yet they still sell by the millions. Some even killed us by polluting more diesel particles than declared and the brand is doing just fine. If we can let VW slowly kill us, surely the consumers will eventually give the likes of Geely a pass too if their pricing is right.

Buyer beware, the overall quality is reflected in the low price.

Wait, I've seen this quality buyer beware scaremongering play out before: - German cars in 1950's - Japanese cars in the 1970's - Korean cars in the 1990's - Romanian cars in the 2000's - Chinese cars in the 2020's <--- we are here Seems like all those low-quality bogymen from the past improved over time and are now selling well in the western markets where they were once ridiculed for being knock-offs of low quality. What makes you think Chinese makers won't do the same? Especially in the current market where the average European is poorer than before and has less disposable income for flashy purchases from top brands. Most average cars today are just mass market commodities, like your fridge, laptop and microwave oven, there's no tech moat the western brands have other than marketing, perception and brand loyalty, all of which change over time.

Waterluvian 3y ago
My understanding is that they were bad until they eventually weren’t. And that’s probably how this will go too.
- sexy_seedbox 3y ago
  In Hong Kong, this is mostly true, BYD used to suck with lots of EVs breaking down ~5 years ago and there were a LOT less charging stations; their cars have improved dramatically since then.
1970-01-01 3y ago
Because China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. The first wave is always crap, the second wave is crap with a nice paint job, and the third wave is hit and miss quality. Perhaps in a decade they will be in a better position.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Because China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. So was Japan post-WW2, then their auto industry caught up and overtook most of the western brands. Korea did the same later. They had pretty junky cars by western standards but in the late 90's they opened R&D centers in US, UK and Germany and poached top people form top brands like BMW, and look at where they are today. China can speed-run this recipe now, in fact they're doing it right now. Several Chinese brands have R&D offices in Germany and UK for the same reason and will most likely expand with local manufacturing here as well to bypass import tariffs, maybe in Eastern Europe. It's gonna be a bloodbath for the European brands.
  - 1970-01-01 3y ago
    You're cherry picking data. What about Mexican cars? Or Russian? Or even South American? Lots of heavy industry and manufacturing occurs in those countries, however the market never makes it past their borders.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      You're so wrong with your whataboutism it hurts my little brain. Just because a country has a metal industry doesn't automatically mean they'll manufacture competitively successful cars for export, so yeah I'm cherry picking data, because it's the right data. Your whataboutism is baloney since Russia and Mexico never really had a competitive indigenous automotive sector that could compete with the big brands from Japan, Germany and US, so they're relegated to being manufacturing hubs for the IP of those foreign players (before the war for Russia). Ask yourself this: who's tech and industrial export development plan does China currently resemble, Korea and Japan's, or Russia and Mexico's? China can now manufacture 7nm chips domestically. Do you think they can't also figure out how to make a EV to western standards soon enough? Yeah, build quality will be shoddy at first, just like Japanese cars in the past, Korean cars in the past, and Teslas today (ha-gottem!) but they'll improve just like the rest did.
      - 3y ago
bsder 3y ago
Maybe. But China is also unique in that it will happily continue to produce crappy products indefinitely. See: Solar Cells for residential installs. It is, in fact, my fondest hope that China kicks the shit out of the big auto manufacturers. The big manufacturers have been dragging their feet on switching to EVs for decades now. EVs are simpler. EVs don't have to struggle to pass weird pollution standards. EVs can be built on a standardized base and have lots of interior customization. etc. The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. And it's those safety regulations that have always presented very large hurdles for selling cars in the US and EU.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. That's a soon to be non-issue. Chinese companies can build cars to western safety standards if desired. They have the money and the talent. The modern EV version of the famous London Black cab is made in London by a subsidiary of Geely[1]. Is that also not up to western safety regulations? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
  - bsder 3y ago
    Pumping a billion dollars into a British-based business for 20 years and producing about 10,000 cars total isn't going to even make the incumbents itch.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  What China has is the ability to produce batteries at massive scale and thus undercut everyone else on pricing. Right now the legacy US companies can’t ship affordable EVs because they can’t source the batteries.
Our_Benefactors 3y ago
With the exception of Japanese, those are all crappy in terms of reliability.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  And yet they still sell by the millions. Some even killed us by polluting more diesel particles than declared and the brand is doing just fine. If we can let VW slowly kill us, surely the consumers will eventually give the likes of Geely a pass too if their pricing is right.