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China's EV Boom Caught Western Car Companies Asleep at the Wheel
- 1970-01-01 3y agoBuyer beware, the overall quality is reflected in the low price.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoWait, I've seen this quality buyer beware scaremongering play out before: - German cars in 1950's - Japanese cars in the 1970's - Korean cars in the 1990's - Romanian cars in the 2000's - Chinese cars in the 2020's <--- we are here Seems like all those low-quality bogymen from the past improved over time and are now selling well in the western markets where they were once ridiculed for being knock-offs of low quality. What makes you think Chinese makers won't do the same? Especially in the current market where the average European is poorer than before and has less disposable income for flashy purchases from top brands. Most average cars today are just mass market commodities, like your fridge, laptop and microwave oven, there's no tech moat the western brands have other than marketing, perception and brand loyalty, all of which change over time.
- Waterluvian 3y agoMy understanding is that they were bad until they eventually weren’t. And that’s probably how this will go too.
- sexy_seedbox 3y agoIn Hong Kong, this is mostly true, BYD used to suck with lots of EVs breaking down ~5 years ago and there were a LOT less charging stations; their cars have improved dramatically since then.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoBecause China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. The first wave is always crap, the second wave is crap with a nice paint job, and the third wave is hit and miss quality. Perhaps in a decade they will be in a better position.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>Because China is famous for its pump and dump reputation. So was Japan post-WW2, then their auto industry caught up and overtook most of the western brands. Korea did the same later. They had pretty junky cars by western standards but in the late 90's they opened R&D centers in US, UK and Germany and poached top people form top brands like BMW, and look at where they are today. China can speed-run this recipe now, in fact they're doing it right now. Several Chinese brands have R&D offices in Germany and UK for the same reason and will most likely expand with local manufacturing here as well to bypass import tariffs, maybe in Eastern Europe. It's gonna be a bloodbath for the European brands.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoYou're cherry picking data. What about Mexican cars? Or Russian? Or even South American? Lots of heavy industry and manufacturing occurs in those countries, however the market never makes it past their borders.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoYou're so wrong with your whataboutism it hurts my little brain. Just because a country has a metal industry doesn't automatically mean they'll manufacture competitively successful cars for export, so yeah I'm cherry picking data, because it's the right data. Your whataboutism is baloney since Russia and Mexico never really had a competitive indigenous automotive sector that could compete with the big brands from Japan, Germany and US, so they're relegated to being manufacturing hubs for the IP of those foreign players (before the war for Russia). Ask yourself this: who's tech and industrial export development plan does China currently resemble, Korea and Japan's, or Russia and Mexico's? China can now manufacture 7nm chips domestically. Do you think they can't also figure out how to make a EV to western standards soon enough? Yeah, build quality will be shoddy at first, just like Japanese cars in the past, Korean cars in the past, and Teslas today (ha-gottem!) but they'll improve just like the rest did.
- bsder 3y agoMaybe. But China is also unique in that it will happily continue to produce crappy products indefinitely. See: Solar Cells for residential installs. It is, in fact, my fondest hope that China kicks the shit out of the big auto manufacturers. The big manufacturers have been dragging their feet on switching to EVs for decades now. EVs are simpler. EVs don't have to struggle to pass weird pollution standards. EVs can be built on a standardized base and have lots of interior customization. etc. The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. And it's those safety regulations that have always presented very large hurdles for selling cars in the US and EU.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>The problem is that China's record on following safety regulations is abysmal. That's a soon to be non-issue. Chinese companies can build cars to western safety standards if desired. They have the money and the talent. The modern EV version of the famous London Black cab is made in London by a subsidiary of Geely[1]. Is that also not up to western safety regulations? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEVC_TX
- bsder 3y agoPumping a billion dollars into a British-based business for 20 years and producing about 10,000 cars total isn't going to even make the incumbents itch.
- matthewdgreen 3y agoWhat China has is the ability to produce batteries at massive scale and thus undercut everyone else on pricing. Right now the legacy US companies can’t ship affordable EVs because they can’t source the batteries.
- Our_Benefactors 3y agoWith the exception of Japanese, those are all crappy in terms of reliability.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoAnd yet they still sell by the millions. Some even killed us by polluting more diesel particles than declared and the brand is doing just fine. If we can let VW slowly kill us, surely the consumers will eventually give the likes of Geely a pass too if their pricing is right.
- bfrog 3y agoArguably western car companies have been asleep for much longer than that in terms of the products and quality offered.
- stevenwoo 3y agoIt ends with the reveal that the in China western automotive expert they quoted multiple times uses a scooter to get around his city - because it’s implied even at current market penetration levels the traffic is too bad by car or easier to bypass on a scooter. Is the traffic comparable to Los Angeles/Boston/Houston freeways ?
- blackbear_ 3y agoJust to add some context, in big Chinese cities most people on the road are using electric scooters. There are really a lot, like a river, perhaps you can find some footage online. While the traffic is pretty heavy, it would be completely unmanageable were not for these scooters, and moost roads have specific lanes for them. I'd say that if your destination is less than 5/10 km away, it's more advantageous not to take a car.
- stevenwoo 3y agoThanks, I have never been to China, but have driven in big US cities so any basis for comparison is helpful.
- ZeroGravitas 3y agoOr, they saw it coming and had no profit motive to maintain their home nation's global dominance and prestige when they could just make short term profits, with a plan to later beg for protectionism and bailouts.
- tibbydudeza 3y agoWe started getting Chinese cars on our market and to be honest the new Cherry Tiggo Pro and Haval H6 looks pretty good i.r.o fit and finish. But their drivetrain is a generation behind and underpowered (1.5L) and usually either a licensed copy of an older Japanese one or developed by an Italian/German engineering consultancy. Nothing wrong with that approach as the Koreans did the same by licensing and later developing their own.
- tibbydudeza 3y agoThe spectucular fall of Weltmeister is a case of taking market share without making $$$.