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Those are not criticisms of Google the company. They are minor feature gripes about products. This supports my point.

fpgeek 15y ago
I don't really follow that. Perhaps the complaints about "Google Play" and the back button are minor gripes (though I have seen them woven into larger themes), but... The implied answer to any of the "Why" questions asked in anger (as they usually are) is "Google doesn't care about ______ users." (whether you fill in the blank with non-US, Nexus One, non-ICS, etc). Similarly, the implication behind the things Google/Android "should" be doing (but isn't) is that Google doesn't care about what they should (fragmentation and open source in my examples). Those are all criticisms of the company, not just the specific issue raised.
- rbarooah 15y ago
  In that case you've successfully invalidated the parent poster's claim that posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners. Either way shows the parent post to be a baseless ad-hominem.
  - fpgeek 15y ago
    The parent post didn't say "posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners". Instead, it said there was a "correlation" between people who own iPhones and people who "focus" their "rants" on Google "to the exclusion of other players". It also wasn't talking about the tendency you reference upthread (people who use things from company X tend not to criticize company X). Let me try to make the claim clearer: People who use Apple products (specifically iPhones) disproportionately criticize Google (since Android). You may agree or disagree with that claim, but, in my opinion, it is a claim that should be evaluated on its own merits rather than summarily dismissed (as you do).
    - rbarooah 15y ago
      I nowhere summarily dismiss it. I say that the correlation is not exclusive to Apple owners and is just a reflection of their opinions. What I dismiss is the claim that this pattern is somehow unique to Apple users commenting on Google vs say Android users commenting on Apple. That's what makes it an ad-hominem. Do you actually support this claim?
      - ajross 15y ago
        Slow down. You're strawmaning really badly here. Neither did I say that the correlation was "exclusive" to Apple owners. I said (read carefully this time) that the perception that Google has been doing things worthy of heavy criticism ("turned evil", etc...) is unique to the community of technical Apple users (and that this community heavily overlaps the one here). Outside that echo chamber, even in highly technical communities, it doesn't exist. So I argue that it's a social artifact, not a reflection of Google's behavior.
        rbarooah 15y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. I have recently had the experiences of meeting more than one person (not super-technical engineers, but tech-literate IT people) who were very negative about even the idea of owning Apple products, but also without prompting made statements like "I hate what Google is becoming", and "everyone used to like them but now they're evil". So I can assure you the sentiments aren't limited to such a small community. Even if this were not so, complex criticisms of a technology business would reasonably be expected to originate within a skilled technical community with a demonstrated preference for an alternative. So if these critiques did happen to be limited to this community, this would still be no reason to conclude that they do not reflect Google's behavior. Your statements like: And the reason is clear: since 2008 Android has represented the biggest single threat to Apple's increasing dominance. are clearly an ad-hominem because you are implying that their criticisms stem from loyalty to Apple as a company, as opposed to them actually reasoning that Google's products and strategies have become counter to their specific values. I'd say it's just as reasonable to suggest that Android amongst other things has caused Google itself to change its values, and it is this change of values that people are calling out. Saying things like "none of this speaks to the legitimacy of.." and "Some of it is deserved.." does nothing to mitigate the ad-hominem. If the criticism is legitimate, or the statements are deserved, then it doesn't matter what phone someone has in their pocket.

I don't really follow that. Perhaps the complaints about "Google Play" and the back button are minor gripes (though I have seen them woven into larger themes), but... The implied answer to any of the "Why" questions asked in anger (as they usually are) is "Google doesn't care about ______ users." (whether you fill in the blank with non-US, Nexus One, non-ICS, etc). Similarly, the implication behind the things Google/Android "should" be doing (but isn't) is that Google doesn't care about what they should (fragmentation and open source in my examples). Those are all criticisms of the company, not just the specific issue raised.

rbarooah 15y ago
In that case you've successfully invalidated the parent poster's claim that posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners. Either way shows the parent post to be a baseless ad-hominem.
- fpgeek 15y ago
  The parent post didn't say "posts critical of Google are only made by iPhone owners". Instead, it said there was a "correlation" between people who own iPhones and people who "focus" their "rants" on Google "to the exclusion of other players". It also wasn't talking about the tendency you reference upthread (people who use things from company X tend not to criticize company X). Let me try to make the claim clearer: People who use Apple products (specifically iPhones) disproportionately criticize Google (since Android). You may agree or disagree with that claim, but, in my opinion, it is a claim that should be evaluated on its own merits rather than summarily dismissed (as you do).
  - rbarooah 15y ago
    I nowhere summarily dismiss it. I say that the correlation is not exclusive to Apple owners and is just a reflection of their opinions. What I dismiss is the claim that this pattern is somehow unique to Apple users commenting on Google vs say Android users commenting on Apple. That's what makes it an ad-hominem. Do you actually support this claim?
    - ajross 15y ago
      Slow down. You're strawmaning really badly here. Neither did I say that the correlation was "exclusive" to Apple owners. I said (read carefully this time) that the perception that Google has been doing things worthy of heavy criticism ("turned evil", etc...) is unique to the community of technical Apple users (and that this community heavily overlaps the one here). Outside that echo chamber, even in highly technical communities, it doesn't exist. So I argue that it's a social artifact, not a reflection of Google's behavior.
      - rbarooah 15y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. I have recently had the experiences of meeting more than one person (not super-technical engineers, but tech-literate IT people) who were very negative about even the idea of owning Apple products, but also without prompting made statements like "I hate what Google is becoming", and "everyone used to like them but now they're evil". So I can assure you the sentiments aren't limited to such a small community. Even if this were not so, complex criticisms of a technology business would reasonably be expected to originate within a skilled technical community with a demonstrated preference for an alternative. So if these critiques did happen to be limited to this community, this would still be no reason to conclude that they do not reflect Google's behavior. Your statements like: And the reason is clear: since 2008 Android has represented the biggest single threat to Apple's increasing dominance. are clearly an ad-hominem because you are implying that their criticisms stem from loyalty to Apple as a company, as opposed to them actually reasoning that Google's products and strategies have become counter to their specific values. I'd say it's just as reasonable to suggest that Android amongst other things has caused Google itself to change its values, and it is this change of values that people are calling out. Saying things like "none of this speaks to the legitimacy of.." and "Some of it is deserved.." does nothing to mitigate the ad-hominem. If the criticism is legitimate, or the statements are deserved, then it doesn't matter what phone someone has in their pocket.