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By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Ukraine towards Russia, implying that Russia is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions a

By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Ukraine towards Russia, implying that Russia is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions against EU and not Ukraine. Or in other words: you're being a useful idiot for Ukraine. Do you see now how useful your comment is?

lawn 3y ago
And here's another common talking point: To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything. I say that comments like these are useful idiots for Russia because they're echoing the Russian propaganda and talking points. Am I echoing "EU propaganda"? (Which is really the whole western world, not just EU.)
- canadiantim 3y ago
  Is trying to take a nuanced view really a common talking point? I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. Like how can we actually have a conversation if you just dismiss a priori other perspectives? Almost certainly both sides are lying to some extent, whether to the same extent who knows but certainly up for discussion and debate. Not willing to entertain the idea that yes Ukraine is lying and engaging in propaganda too (just like the Russians), I'd say that yes you are echoing western propaganda; though it may not be conscious, hence the word echo.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yours is not a nuanced view, it is practically indistinguishable from Russian talking points.
    - canadiantim 3y ago
      You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        > You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I'm not suggesting it. > I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous. You are not going to get much traction with this nonsense, there is no 'my side' or anything else but thank you for confirming what 'your side' is.
        canadiantim 3y ago
        Ah I see, you're just trolling, okay no problem. When you have something productive to add to the conversation, let me know.
  - lawn 3y ago
    > I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. This is a fine starting point, but only if you ignore the mountains if evidence where Russia has consistently lied about everything from Ukraine being Nazis to who set up the torture chambers on liberated land, while racking up thousands of war crimes. Implying that both sides lies to the same extent is just stupid wrong, and is exactly the narrative that Russia wants to promote. Of course everyone uses propaganda, but there's an incredibly large difference between what the free world can get away with and what the totalitarian Russian government csn and will do.

lawn 3y ago

And here's another common talking point: To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything. I say that comments like these are useful idiots for Russia because they're echoing the Russian propaganda and talking points. Am I echoing "EU propaganda"? (Which is really the whole western world, not just EU.)

canadiantim 3y ago
Is trying to take a nuanced view really a common talking point? I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. Like how can we actually have a conversation if you just dismiss a priori other perspectives? Almost certainly both sides are lying to some extent, whether to the same extent who knows but certainly up for discussion and debate. Not willing to entertain the idea that yes Ukraine is lying and engaging in propaganda too (just like the Russians), I'd say that yes you are echoing western propaganda; though it may not be conscious, hence the word echo.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yours is not a nuanced view, it is practically indistinguishable from Russian talking points.
  - canadiantim 3y ago
    You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      > You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I'm not suggesting it. > I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous. You are not going to get much traction with this nonsense, there is no 'my side' or anything else but thank you for confirming what 'your side' is.
      - canadiantim 3y ago
        Ah I see, you're just trolling, okay no problem. When you have something productive to add to the conversation, let me know.
- lawn 3y ago
  > I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. This is a fine starting point, but only if you ignore the mountains if evidence where Russia has consistently lied about everything from Ukraine being Nazis to who set up the torture chambers on liberated land, while racking up thousands of war crimes. Implying that both sides lies to the same extent is just stupid wrong, and is exactly the narrative that Russia wants to promote. Of course everyone uses propaganda, but there's an incredibly large difference between what the free world can get away with and what the totalitarian Russian government csn and will do.