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Stuff like this is why I don't want OTA updates in my cars. Let the car dealership deal with it during regular maintenance. They'll be on the hook for fixing it

Stuff like this is why I don't want OTA updates in my cars. Let the car dealership deal with it during regular maintenance. They'll be on the hook for fixing it before handing the car back to me.

ben_jones 3y ago
But what if your car doesn’t have the latest emojiset or social sharing functionality within the notes app?
galangalalgol 3y ago
Don't even need OTA. A seattle radio station bricked a bunch of mazdas. https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/09/seattle-radio-station-breaks-mazda-infotainment-systems/ https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/09/seattle-radio-station-br...
- cozzyd 3y ago
  Amazing. Can't wait for some car software stack to be so poorly designed that an FM transmitter can remote takeover.
  - galangalalgol 3y ago
    It quite possibly could have with a well formed digital fm payload.
    - cozzyd 3y ago
      We'll hopefully no car manufacturer is dumb enough that the FM radio software can affect vehicle control functions but I wouldn't be surprised ..
      - aftbit 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure they are all dumb enough for this. This is why people can steal (modern) cars by ripping a headlight out and accessing the CAN bus through the gap. https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ AIUI the military uses "CAN bus firewalls" to prevent this. There is also some sort of encrypted/authenticated CAN bus protocol in the works. Neither are common in production cars as of 2022 or so, though they may be soon enough.
        lttlrck 3y ago
        Encrypted/authenticated CAN sounds like "Apple component pairing coming to car near you". No thanks.
        aftbit 3y ago
        Honestly we need a law that says that _all_ keys used in your car (software and physical) need to be given to you. This should include the keys to sign the updates, manage the CAN networks, etc. Even ignoring the automaker lobby's inevitable opposition, this would never happen because one could use it to defeat things like emissions controls or the coming anti-impairment technology[1]. 1: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-joe-biden-technology-business-health-068ee87392b0cca1444053b854a514dd https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-joe-biden-te...
dilyevsky 3y ago
There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car
- nkingsy 3y ago
  Hertz seemed to find teslas cost double ice counterparts to maintain. Maybe it’s auto company smoke but source: https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-rental-price-wars-q3-earnings/amp/ https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-ren...
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    That’s because it is run by idiots who ran it into bankruptcy
  - aftbit 3y ago
    I'm not sure maintenance costs are really the relevant part. It seems like the problem is that Teslas are cheaper now and thus Hertz's fleet is worth less than it was before. Additionally, they find that Teslas suffer more damage, likely from collisions or similar. Routine maintenance costs are not mentioned in that article at all. >In short, the declining value of the Tesla cars in Hertz’s fleet—a decline directly caused by Musk’s price cuts—has hit Hertz squarely in its profits. >Without explaining precisely why, Scherr said Hertz is suffering a higher incidence of damage specifically with its EV fleet, where the repair costs are roughly double that of a comparable gas-fueled car. >“Studies of current EV ownership evidence lower incidence of damage and collision than for ICE vehicles, not higher as we are experiencing,” he revealed. Musk’s price cuts then become an acute problem when one of the Hertz EVs sustains so much damage that the cost of repair is more than the asset itself. >“Where a car is salvaged, we must crystallize at once any difference between our carrying value and the market value of that car,” Scherr explained. “The [price] declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden.” >In short, Hertz then needs to book a noncash accounting charge. Together with the higher repair costs this led to significant profit margin headwinds. https://archive.ph/leFdf https://archive.ph/leFdf
SoftTalker 3y ago
Also worth considering that a manufacturer like Rivian is pretty small. Every town has a Ford dealer. There are many states, however, that don't even have a single Rivian service center.
- 0xffff2 3y ago
  Coverage is even thinner than I would have guessed. California has 6 Rivian service centers, but they're strongly clustered in the Bay area and LA/OC/SAN. Even in California if you live in Fresno/Bakersfield/Santa Barbara etc you're looking at several hours round trip to visit an official service center.
evanelias 3y ago
Regardless of OTA vs dealership-only updates, software bugs can have problematic effects long after the update occurred. So far I've had to take my Chevy Bolt to the dealership twice due to major software problems causing the "service needed" indicator to be lit (equivalent to "check engine"), and I've owned it for barely over a year. The first time, some random bug made the car think there was something wrong with the transmission under some extremely specific set of circumstances, and as a safety precaution it would refuse to shift into drive if not serviced within 100 key cycles. The second time, it was a bug with the software that manages battery health making the car think the battery had a severe problem. In that situation, as a safety precaution, the car refuses to charge above 40%, disables regenerative breaking, limits the HVAC usage, and slightly limits max acceleration. This is getting very irritating. I bought an EV because I thought it would require fewer maintenance visits to the dealer!

Stuff like this is why I don't want OTA updates in my cars. Let the car dealership deal with it during regular maintenance. They'll be on the hook for fixing it before handing the car back to me.

ben_jones 3y ago

But what if your car doesn’t have the latest emojiset or social sharing functionality within the notes app?

galangalalgol 3y ago

Don't even need OTA. A seattle radio station bricked a bunch of mazdas. https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/09/seattle-radio-station-breaks-mazda-infotainment-systems/ https://www.autoblog.com/2022/02/09/seattle-radio-station-br...

cozzyd 3y ago
Amazing. Can't wait for some car software stack to be so poorly designed that an FM transmitter can remote takeover.
- galangalalgol 3y ago
  It quite possibly could have with a well formed digital fm payload.
  - cozzyd 3y ago
    We'll hopefully no car manufacturer is dumb enough that the FM radio software can affect vehicle control functions but I wouldn't be surprised ..
    - aftbit 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure they are all dumb enough for this. This is why people can steal (modern) cars by ripping a headlight out and accessing the CAN bus through the gap. https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ AIUI the military uses "CAN bus firewalls" to prevent this. There is also some sort of encrypted/authenticated CAN bus protocol in the works. Neither are common in production cars as of 2022 or so, though they may be soon enough.
      - lttlrck 3y ago
        Encrypted/authenticated CAN sounds like "Apple component pairing coming to car near you". No thanks.
        aftbit 3y ago
        Honestly we need a law that says that _all_ keys used in your car (software and physical) need to be given to you. This should include the keys to sign the updates, manage the CAN networks, etc. Even ignoring the automaker lobby's inevitable opposition, this would never happen because one could use it to defeat things like emissions controls or the coming anti-impairment technology[1]. 1: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-joe-biden-technology-business-health-068ee87392b0cca1444053b854a514dd https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-joe-biden-te...

dilyevsky 3y ago

There is nearly zero regular maintenance to be done on EVs though. No oil, no belts, no fuel filter, spark plugs etc. Even the brakes will likely last entire lifetime of the car

nkingsy 3y ago
Hertz seemed to find teslas cost double ice counterparts to maintain. Maybe it’s auto company smoke but source: https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-rental-price-wars-q3-earnings/amp/ https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/tesla-elon-musk-hertz-evs-ren...
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  That’s because it is run by idiots who ran it into bankruptcy
- aftbit 3y ago
  I'm not sure maintenance costs are really the relevant part. It seems like the problem is that Teslas are cheaper now and thus Hertz's fleet is worth less than it was before. Additionally, they find that Teslas suffer more damage, likely from collisions or similar. Routine maintenance costs are not mentioned in that article at all. >In short, the declining value of the Tesla cars in Hertz’s fleet—a decline directly caused by Musk’s price cuts—has hit Hertz squarely in its profits. >Without explaining precisely why, Scherr said Hertz is suffering a higher incidence of damage specifically with its EV fleet, where the repair costs are roughly double that of a comparable gas-fueled car. >“Studies of current EV ownership evidence lower incidence of damage and collision than for ICE vehicles, not higher as we are experiencing,” he revealed. Musk’s price cuts then become an acute problem when one of the Hertz EVs sustains so much damage that the cost of repair is more than the asset itself. >“Where a car is salvaged, we must crystallize at once any difference between our carrying value and the market value of that car,” Scherr explained. “The [price] declines in EVs over the course of 2023, driven primarily by Tesla, have driven the fair market value of our EVs lower as compared to last year, such that a salvage creates a larger loss and, therefore, greater burden.” >In short, Hertz then needs to book a noncash accounting charge. Together with the higher repair costs this led to significant profit margin headwinds. https://archive.ph/leFdf https://archive.ph/leFdf

SoftTalker 3y ago

Also worth considering that a manufacturer like Rivian is pretty small. Every town has a Ford dealer. There are many states, however, that don't even have a single Rivian service center.

0xffff2 3y ago
Coverage is even thinner than I would have guessed. California has 6 Rivian service centers, but they're strongly clustered in the Bay area and LA/OC/SAN. Even in California if you live in Fresno/Bakersfield/Santa Barbara etc you're looking at several hours round trip to visit an official service center.

evanelias 3y ago

Regardless of OTA vs dealership-only updates, software bugs can have problematic effects long after the update occurred. So far I've had to take my Chevy Bolt to the dealership twice due to major software problems causing the "service needed" indicator to be lit (equivalent to "check engine"), and I've owned it for barely over a year. The first time, some random bug made the car think there was something wrong with the transmission under some extremely specific set of circumstances, and as a safety precaution it would refuse to shift into drive if not serviced within 100 key cycles. The second time, it was a bug with the software that manages battery health making the car think the battery had a severe problem. In that situation, as a safety precaution, the car refuses to charge above 40%, disables regenerative breaking, limits the HVAC usage, and slightly limits max acceleration. This is getting very irritating. I bought an EV because I thought it would require fewer maintenance visits to the dealer!