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By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Russia towards Ukraine, implying that Ukraine is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions

by lawn 3y ago

By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Russia towards Ukraine, implying that Ukraine is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions against EU and not Russia. Or in other words: you're being a useful idiot for Russia.

verisimi 3y ago
As opposed to being a useful idiot for the EU? Really, we are all so far removed from the geopolitical reality, who can say what is the truth of the matter? Please share your info/reasoning, if you think you have a special reason for thinking you have a better handle on it than others. In fact, this is really a general comment, that I direct at anyone who purports to know this or that.
- pydry 3y ago
  The "Ukraine did it" story is just an American admission that their first cover story of "Russia did it to itself" was too absurd even for them. The only account that actually makes sense is still Seymour Hersh's - especially given the small matter of Biden's public threat and the motives.
  - canadiantim 3y ago
    I believe this is the real answer
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      2 hours for a full flip from one obviously guilty party to another... wow.
      - canadiantim 3y ago
        I was correct in pointing out that it looks like Ukraine may have coordinated the attack, as substantiated by the WaPo article. I also believe that WaPo may be making Ukraine look like they've coordinated the attack in order to keep blame away from any US involvement. The most unlikely guilty party would of course be Russia, who has the most to lose in Nord Stream's sabotage.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        No, you are not correct. You are pointing out that there is a vaguely sourced article that makes such claims, not that it looks like that is the case. > I also believe that WaPo may be making Ukraine look like they've coordinated the attack in order to keep blame away from any US involvement. No, that's not what the WaPo is doing. > The most unlikely guilty party would of course be Russia, who has the most to lose in Nord Stream's sabotage. This is factually incorrect for a number of reasons, a big part of which is that Russia has more to gain from dividing the EU than from losing Nord Stream.
        canadiantim 3y ago
        I like how I use sources when stating things but you just state things are factually incorrect without any references. How about you try backing up your statements else you're just spreading disinformation.
        verisimi 3y ago
        Perhaps, if the information is not something you have verified it could be false. Governments and media do lie. If that is the case here, by providing sources, it is you spreading misinformation. The other person is merely giving am opinion. Myself, I am trying to establish the truth of the matter - I don't accept so-called authoritative sources when they are proven liars. The only way I know of to satisfy myself off the truth is to verify it personally. Involving myself in these narratives, is like acting upon (convincing) hearsay or gossip. It's simply not part of my life. I won't call for harm to people I do not know on account of a story that could be a lie.
        canadiantim 3y ago
        That’s fair and I think you’re wise to only try to verify information yourself, but atleast by providing sources I am giving you more information you can digest to make your assessment. More information is better than less information even if its bad information (since as you say, you’re assessing the quality of the source anyway). So I think it’s still fair to say that it’s better to provide possible sources or support for a statement than not.
canadiantim 3y ago
By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Ukraine towards Russia, implying that Russia is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions against EU and not Ukraine. Or in other words: you're being a useful idiot for Ukraine. Do you see now how useful your comment is?
- lawn 3y ago
  And here's another common talking point: To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything. I say that comments like these are useful idiots for Russia because they're echoing the Russian propaganda and talking points. Am I echoing "EU propaganda"? (Which is really the whole western world, not just EU.)
  - canadiantim 3y ago
    Is trying to take a nuanced view really a common talking point? I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. Like how can we actually have a conversation if you just dismiss a priori other perspectives? Almost certainly both sides are lying to some extent, whether to the same extent who knows but certainly up for discussion and debate. Not willing to entertain the idea that yes Ukraine is lying and engaging in propaganda too (just like the Russians), I'd say that yes you are echoing western propaganda; though it may not be conscious, hence the word echo.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yours is not a nuanced view, it is practically indistinguishable from Russian talking points.
      - canadiantim 3y ago
        You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous.

by lawn 3y ago

verisimi 3y ago

As opposed to being a useful idiot for the EU? Really, we are all so far removed from the geopolitical reality, who can say what is the truth of the matter? Please share your info/reasoning, if you think you have a special reason for thinking you have a better handle on it than others. In fact, this is really a general comment, that I direct at anyone who purports to know this or that.

pydry 3y ago
The "Ukraine did it" story is just an American admission that their first cover story of "Russia did it to itself" was too absurd even for them. The only account that actually makes sense is still Seymour Hersh's - especially given the small matter of Biden's public threat and the motives.
- canadiantim 3y ago
  I believe this is the real answer
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    2 hours for a full flip from one obviously guilty party to another... wow.
    - canadiantim 3y ago
      I was correct in pointing out that it looks like Ukraine may have coordinated the attack, as substantiated by the WaPo article. I also believe that WaPo may be making Ukraine look like they've coordinated the attack in order to keep blame away from any US involvement. The most unlikely guilty party would of course be Russia, who has the most to lose in Nord Stream's sabotage.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        No, you are not correct. You are pointing out that there is a vaguely sourced article that makes such claims, not that it looks like that is the case. > I also believe that WaPo may be making Ukraine look like they've coordinated the attack in order to keep blame away from any US involvement. No, that's not what the WaPo is doing. > The most unlikely guilty party would of course be Russia, who has the most to lose in Nord Stream's sabotage. This is factually incorrect for a number of reasons, a big part of which is that Russia has more to gain from dividing the EU than from losing Nord Stream.
        canadiantim 3y ago
        I like how I use sources when stating things but you just state things are factually incorrect without any references. How about you try backing up your statements else you're just spreading disinformation.
        verisimi 3y ago
        Perhaps, if the information is not something you have verified it could be false. Governments and media do lie. If that is the case here, by providing sources, it is you spreading misinformation. The other person is merely giving am opinion. Myself, I am trying to establish the truth of the matter - I don't accept so-called authoritative sources when they are proven liars. The only way I know of to satisfy myself off the truth is to verify it personally. Involving myself in these narratives, is like acting upon (convincing) hearsay or gossip. It's simply not part of my life. I won't call for harm to people I do not know on account of a story that could be a lie.
        canadiantim 3y ago
        That’s fair and I think you’re wise to only try to verify information yourself, but atleast by providing sources I am giving you more information you can digest to make your assessment. More information is better than less information even if its bad information (since as you say, you’re assessing the quality of the source anyway). So I think it’s still fair to say that it’s better to provide possible sources or support for a statement than not.

canadiantim 3y ago

By making this comment you want to shift blame away from Ukraine towards Russia, implying that Russia is somehow responsible for the uptick of hostile actions against EU and not Ukraine. Or in other words: you're being a useful idiot for Ukraine. Do you see now how useful your comment is?

lawn 3y ago
And here's another common talking point: To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything. I say that comments like these are useful idiots for Russia because they're echoing the Russian propaganda and talking points. Am I echoing "EU propaganda"? (Which is really the whole western world, not just EU.)
- canadiantim 3y ago
  Is trying to take a nuanced view really a common talking point? I mean, hopefully it is, but to suggest that saying "both are lying to the same extent" is Russian propaganda seems poisonous to me. Like how can we actually have a conversation if you just dismiss a priori other perspectives? Almost certainly both sides are lying to some extent, whether to the same extent who knows but certainly up for discussion and debate. Not willing to entertain the idea that yes Ukraine is lying and engaging in propaganda too (just like the Russians), I'd say that yes you are echoing western propaganda; though it may not be conscious, hence the word echo.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yours is not a nuanced view, it is practically indistinguishable from Russian talking points.
    - canadiantim 3y ago
      You suggest saying this quote was like echoing Russian propaganda: "To try to make both sides as equal, as if both are lying to the same extent and there's the same amount of evidence for either side and that we cannot know anything." I said that's a poisonous perspective to anyone who actually values reasonable discussion and trying to ascertain the truth, because you're effectively saying only your side (ukraine) is right and suggesting anything else is russian propaganda. So again that's why I think your perspective is poisonous.