3 ms·

As always, I'm going to assume it was done by the US until proven otherwise. Given their past underhanded treatment of allies, presumption of innocence is not s

As always, I'm going to assume it was done by the US until proven otherwise. Given their past underhanded treatment of allies, presumption of innocence is not something they deserve. In this case they were also one of the countries most strongly lobbying against the pipeline. I don't think it should exist either, so even though I "blame" the US for having blown it up, I think it's a good thing it happened. A democratic or diplomatic solution would have been nicer. So... thanks but not thanks?

ben_w 3y ago
I can easily believe any of the US, Russia, and Ukraine did it. The US because I agree with you about their history of playing such games; Russia because they are currently doing stupid things and blaming everyone else for it; and Ukraine because (while it would be really risky if they were found out) it has an obvious direct benefit of making it much harder for anyone in the EU to spend money on Russian gas even if they wanted to. There could be others, but I'm not sure who. China doesn't seem likely to be interested to me, but I could be wrong. North Korea seems like a chaos gremlin, but I don't think they have the capability. Greenpeace? :P
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Greenpeace is a new one. But the others all have motive means and opportunity to varying degrees. The one thing that is still most underdeveloped is how hard it really is to perform a feat like this.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    I hope the :P makes it clear I don't take the idea seriously…
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, it was clear. But funny too. Note that the original cast of Greenpeace might not have been all against doing something like that. They started out as what today would be called eco-terrorists, and they had some pretty amazing capabilities for a group that small. Beware of intelligent and dedicated people. Their roots are in anti-war and anti-nuclear groups and over time their goals broadened. Today's Greenpeace is a gentle marketing club in comparison with how it all started. A turning point was the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, after that the nature of the organization changed considerably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior Ironically, it served as a wake-up call that something like Greenpeace is very much needed and was probably one of the biggest reasons people changed from 'neutral' to 'pro environment'. The French did not exactly do themselves a service with that action.

ben_w 3y ago

I can easily believe any of the US, Russia, and Ukraine did it. The US because I agree with you about their history of playing such games; Russia because they are currently doing stupid things and blaming everyone else for it; and Ukraine because (while it would be really risky if they were found out) it has an obvious direct benefit of making it much harder for anyone in the EU to spend money on Russian gas even if they wanted to. There could be others, but I'm not sure who. China doesn't seem likely to be interested to me, but I could be wrong. North Korea seems like a chaos gremlin, but I don't think they have the capability. Greenpeace? :P

jacquesm 3y ago
Greenpeace is a new one. But the others all have motive means and opportunity to varying degrees. The one thing that is still most underdeveloped is how hard it really is to perform a feat like this.
- ben_w 3y ago
  I hope the :P makes it clear I don't take the idea seriously…
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Yes, it was clear. But funny too. Note that the original cast of Greenpeace might not have been all against doing something like that. They started out as what today would be called eco-terrorists, and they had some pretty amazing capabilities for a group that small. Beware of intelligent and dedicated people. Their roots are in anti-war and anti-nuclear groups and over time their goals broadened. Today's Greenpeace is a gentle marketing club in comparison with how it all started. A turning point was the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, after that the nature of the organization changed considerably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior Ironically, it served as a wake-up call that something like Greenpeace is very much needed and was probably one of the biggest reasons people changed from 'neutral' to 'pro environment'. The French did not exactly do themselves a service with that action.