4 ms·

> Natural gas heating is much cheaper than electric. Does this include the cost of dealing with the effects of emitting CO2 into the atmosphere?

jonnycoder 3y ago
The global economy runs on energy and emitting co2. Last I checked majority of electricity is mainly produced from burning fossil fuels.
chrisco255 3y ago
You mean the costs of having to mow the lawn more or harvest more crops from all the increased plant growth? https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth-study-finds/ https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization...
abeppu 3y ago
But also, how green is your electricity? The "electrify everything b/c it's greener" approach seems currently largely aspirational. My understanding is that most states still get most of their electricity from fossil fuels. https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g...
- BeetleB 3y ago
  My electricity is 99% green (wind + solar).
  - abeppu 3y ago
    So is mine, supposedly, but overall we have a long way to go in switching the grid to renewables. The states that have the lowest dependence on fossil fuels for generation all have a significant amount of hydro power, which is probably not going to expand, and which can have its own environmental issues.
  - landemva 3y ago
    Some locations have a great mix of wind + sun, so minimal backup storage may be required. What is the plan/cost for offsetting solar cell production and recycling?
    - Aachen 3y ago
      Solar electricity, including panel production and disposal, is so much less emissive than even the cleanest gas generator (let alone coal or such), that I honestly find that a worry for later. Let's get the world on low emissions before nitpicking about how to get it fully circular (likely, that's near-impossible and we'll eventually need to mine other bodies in the solar/star system, but that, too, I find to be a worry for later). It comes across as though you're asking a vegetarian if they've ever killed a mosquito. Perfect is the enemy of good If it's a serious question, then this is where carbon capture will have to come in, if our emissions aren't already low enough to be workable for the earth's natural carbon cycles
- r00fus 3y ago
  You can get a lot closer to 100% green if you have rooftop solar no matter where you are. So moving to using more electricity just recoups your investment faster assuming you've overspecced even just a little.
archontes 3y ago
According to [1], burning natural gas generates 0.0053 tons per therm. According to [2], the cost to reclaim CO2 from natural gas sources is approximately $90 per ton on the high end. Some quick math done on an old gas bill of mine suggests that reclamation would increase my bill by 40% (assuming that no reclamation is presently priced in). So... If the article is correct, and electric energy costs 77% more than natural gas, then yes. Natural gas is still cheaper when factoring in emissions. 1 - https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-ca... 2 - https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.0065 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.006...
- qwytw 3y ago
  > So... If the article is correct, and electric energy costs 77% more than natural gas, If you use resistive heating, heat pump would be 40-50% or so cheaper. Of course with no subsidies the initial cost might be rather high.
  - archontes 3y ago
    I'll ask my landlord to install one right away. Probably have to be an earth-exchange system to deal with temperatures lower than 40°F, given that heating my house in winter is the use case.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      My Mitsubishi Hyperheat units have a COP above 1 down to -15F and still work normally at 5F (northern New Mexico, 6000', overnight). You're getting bad information.
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      Mitsubishis can work down to -13F/-25C and have a COP of 2.08: * https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://enter.mehvac.com.s3.amazonaws.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006%5CM_SUBMITTAL_MSZ-FS12NA_MUZ-FS12NA_en.pdf https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://enter.mehvac.c... If you live in US IECC Climate Zone 4 or above look for a cold climate air-source heat pump (ccASHP): * https://neep.org/heating-electrification/ccashp-specification-product-list https://neep.org/heating-electrification/ccashp-specificatio... * https://ashp.neep.org/#!/ https://ashp.neep.org/#!/ You can also get things installed in a dual fuel arrangement where you still have a gas furnace that kicks in if it does ever get 'too cold'.
qwebfdzsh 3y ago
From the perspective of an individual consumer it doesn't matter much. e.g. if you 100% rational (which is not necessarily the best approach) there is no additional cost for you related to you choosing to use gas regardless of what happens with the climate.
- piva00 3y ago
  That's not being rational, that is being individualistic and short-sighted in name of greed/saving cash. Rationally you want to keep the Earth viable for human populations, for at least the sake of the future of your family if you are that individualistic.
  - qwebfdzsh 3y ago
    Not on the individual level, free-riding is perfectly rational if you goal is to maximize your personal wellbeing, wealth etc.
    - piva00 3y ago
      Perhaps the issue then is the hyperindividualisation after the atomisation of society. To my mind it's not perfectly rational to maximise my personal wellbeing and wealth in detriment of others, maybe I have a collectivist sense higher than others, maybe we should instill that across societies. The 20th century went too far with the me-first approach, we can see it's not really working for societies.
- coldpie 3y ago
  You will pay for it anyway, in terms of increased taxes or insurance rates to pay for areas damaged by climate change, increased food and housing costs as useful land shrinks, and to pay for the upcoming climate refugee crises and ensuing wars. Pay a little more now, or pay a lot more later.

jonnycoder 3y ago

The global economy runs on energy and emitting co2. Last I checked majority of electricity is mainly produced from burning fossil fuels.

chrisco255 3y ago

You mean the costs of having to mow the lawn more or harvest more crops from all the increased plant growth? https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth-study-finds/ https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization...

abeppu 3y ago

But also, how green is your electricity? The "electrify everything b/c it's greener" approach seems currently largely aspirational. My understanding is that most states still get most of their electricity from fossil fuels. https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g...

BeetleB 3y ago
My electricity is 99% green (wind + solar).
- abeppu 3y ago
  So is mine, supposedly, but overall we have a long way to go in switching the grid to renewables. The states that have the lowest dependence on fossil fuels for generation all have a significant amount of hydro power, which is probably not going to expand, and which can have its own environmental issues.
- landemva 3y ago
  Some locations have a great mix of wind + sun, so minimal backup storage may be required. What is the plan/cost for offsetting solar cell production and recycling?
  - Aachen 3y ago
    Solar electricity, including panel production and disposal, is so much less emissive than even the cleanest gas generator (let alone coal or such), that I honestly find that a worry for later. Let's get the world on low emissions before nitpicking about how to get it fully circular (likely, that's near-impossible and we'll eventually need to mine other bodies in the solar/star system, but that, too, I find to be a worry for later). It comes across as though you're asking a vegetarian if they've ever killed a mosquito. Perfect is the enemy of good If it's a serious question, then this is where carbon capture will have to come in, if our emissions aren't already low enough to be workable for the earth's natural carbon cycles
r00fus 3y ago
You can get a lot closer to 100% green if you have rooftop solar no matter where you are. So moving to using more electricity just recoups your investment faster assuming you've overspecced even just a little.

archontes 3y ago

According to [1], burning natural gas generates 0.0053 tons per therm. According to [2], the cost to reclaim CO2 from natural gas sources is approximately $90 per ton on the high end. Some quick math done on an old gas bill of mine suggests that reclamation would increase my bill by 40% (assuming that no reclamation is presently priced in). So... If the article is correct, and electric energy costs 77% more than natural gas, then yes. Natural gas is still cheaper when factoring in emissions. 1 - https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-ca... 2 - https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.0065 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsfs.2019.006...

qwytw 3y ago
> So... If the article is correct, and electric energy costs 77% more than natural gas, If you use resistive heating, heat pump would be 40-50% or so cheaper. Of course with no subsidies the initial cost might be rather high.
- archontes 3y ago
  I'll ask my landlord to install one right away. Probably have to be an earth-exchange system to deal with temperatures lower than 40°F, given that heating my house in winter is the use case.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    My Mitsubishi Hyperheat units have a COP above 1 down to -15F and still work normally at 5F (northern New Mexico, 6000', overnight). You're getting bad information.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    Mitsubishis can work down to -13F/-25C and have a COP of 2.08: * https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://enter.mehvac.com.s3.amazonaws.com/DAMRoot/Original/10006%5CM_SUBMITTAL_MSZ-FS12NA_MUZ-FS12NA_en.pdf https://mylinkdrive.com/viewPdf?srcUrl=http://enter.mehvac.c... If you live in US IECC Climate Zone 4 or above look for a cold climate air-source heat pump (ccASHP): * https://neep.org/heating-electrification/ccashp-specification-product-list https://neep.org/heating-electrification/ccashp-specificatio... * https://ashp.neep.org/#!/ https://ashp.neep.org/#!/ You can also get things installed in a dual fuel arrangement where you still have a gas furnace that kicks in if it does ever get 'too cold'.

qwebfdzsh 3y ago

From the perspective of an individual consumer it doesn't matter much. e.g. if you 100% rational (which is not necessarily the best approach) there is no additional cost for you related to you choosing to use gas regardless of what happens with the climate.

piva00 3y ago
That's not being rational, that is being individualistic and short-sighted in name of greed/saving cash. Rationally you want to keep the Earth viable for human populations, for at least the sake of the future of your family if you are that individualistic.
- qwebfdzsh 3y ago
  Not on the individual level, free-riding is perfectly rational if you goal is to maximize your personal wellbeing, wealth etc.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Perhaps the issue then is the hyperindividualisation after the atomisation of society. To my mind it's not perfectly rational to maximise my personal wellbeing and wealth in detriment of others, maybe I have a collectivist sense higher than others, maybe we should instill that across societies. The 20th century went too far with the me-first approach, we can see it's not really working for societies.
coldpie 3y ago
You will pay for it anyway, in terms of increased taxes or insurance rates to pay for areas damaged by climate change, increased food and housing costs as useful land shrinks, and to pay for the upcoming climate refugee crises and ensuing wars. Pay a little more now, or pay a lot more later.