6 ms·

Disagree. I see the same thing where I live. Natural gas heating is much cheaper than electric. And we have one of the lowest electric rates in the country. G

Disagree. I see the same thing where I live. Natural gas heating is much cheaper than electric. And we have one of the lowest electric rates in the country. Gas heating was also cheaper when I lived in the Midwest. In fact, I often feel the opposite of you - that Big Electric is pushing propaganda. I often see people switching to heat pumps "because it's more efficient", but they don't see their bills go down, and on top of that it's a lot more expensive to install. Even if the bills go down a little, they'll probably not make up for the added cost of equipment in the whole time they are in that house.

tootie 3y ago
"much cheaper" I can believe it has a lower price, but I'm sure the cost is higher.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Not in the least. With baseboard heating, the cost to heat my 1 bedroom apartment was on par with heating a 4 bedroom house (with gas). With a heat pump, at best it will be comparable.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Comment you're replying to was noting the difference between price-to-consumer and cost-to-planet.
  - qwebfdzsh 3y ago
    > With a heat pump, at best it will be comparable. Would it? e.g. according to https://c03.apogee.net/mvc/home/hes/land/el?utilityname=ure&spc=hcc https://c03.apogee.net/mvc/home/hes/land/el?utilityname=ure&... unless you live in area with extremely expensive gas and very cheap electricity it will always be cheaper.
    - BeetleB 3y ago
      Thanks. Went to my gas and electric bills to look up the rates. Plugged in the numbers on the site. Heat pump estimated to cost me $400 extra per year for heating. If I were doing a brand new build, it may make some sense just because I like to be "green". But paying several thousand just for the install, only to end up paying more per year: Just doesn't make sense.
      - soco 3y ago
        I guess that's the crux of the green initiatives: people don't care about going green because they don't care about their environment footprint, thus generally don't care about the planet or other humans. Now if I phrased this too negative I'm sorry, but I guess I'm still right.
      - EmmaEngineer 3y ago
        I think that website is wrong or using obsolete data. I compared with another https://www.pickhvac.com/hvac/furnace-vs-heat-pump-cost/ https://www.pickhvac.com/hvac/furnace-vs-heat-pump-cost/ and it said that with exactly the same numbers the heatpump was 50% cheaper than gas. My own observation is that our heating cost reduced dramatically when we replaced gas with heat pump.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    Electric resistive baseboard is obviously extremely foolish as a primary heating source. It's not a real point of comparison, but closer to a straw man. The point is exactly that electric heat pumps and gas are comparable. Which means that other things start to tip the scale like not having gas in the house (fire safety), having nicer air conditioning for the summer from the same unit, offsetting the grid electricity use with your own solar (lower generation in the winter, but it still helps), and envisioning grid scale sources moving towards renewables.
- archontes 3y ago
  I mathed it a bit. Assuming that there's no reclamation built in to current pricing, pricing in 100% reclamation would increase the cost of natural gas by ~40%. Still not more expensive than electricity if the article is to be taken at face value.
coldpie 3y ago
> Natural gas heating is much cheaper than electric. Does this include the cost of dealing with the effects of emitting CO2 into the atmosphere?
- jonnycoder 3y ago
  The global economy runs on energy and emitting co2. Last I checked majority of electricity is mainly produced from burning fossil fuels.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  You mean the costs of having to mow the lawn more or harvest more crops from all the increased plant growth? https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth-study-finds/ https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization...
- abeppu 3y ago
  But also, how green is your electricity? The "electrify everything b/c it's greener" approach seems currently largely aspirational. My understanding is that most states still get most of their electricity from fossil fuels. https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g...
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    My electricity is 99% green (wind + solar).
    - abeppu 3y ago
      So is mine, supposedly, but overall we have a long way to go in switching the grid to renewables. The states that have the lowest dependence on fossil fuels for generation all have a significant amount of hydro power, which is probably not going to expand, and which can have its own environmental issues.
    - landemva 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ethbr1 3y ago
My lay understanding is that gas is generally produced as a byproduct of pumping oil. Consequently, as long as it's profitable to pump oil... more gas will be supplied to the market. Which means that gas prices will generally be "low" (relative to energy content?) close to oil producers, as it's still profitable to "produce" gas even at low market prices (because you're mainly producing/selling more oil).
- landemva 3y ago
  This is generally correct, that gas is often a byproduct. Consider the location and availability of gas pipeline and collector/compressor stations. And sometimes when pipelines are present they are already at capacity. It is a fascinating industry that is greening (less flaring, electric drilling).
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Yes, for most of us, the cost of natural gas is almost completely transportation costs. The gas itself is only a very small fraction of our bill.
tinus_hn 3y ago
Gas costs just what the gas company asks for it, which is equal to what they think you’ll pay for it. So it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to do this comparison to make some environmental point.
out_of_protocol 3y ago
just pulled typical split-system listing in my country: Gree Lomo Arctic R32 Inverter 2022 , about €740 (this is one of the top makers) energy used while cooling: 0.7kW energy used while heating: 0.7kW cooling power: 2.7kW heating power: 3kW 4x efficiency, yay! that's what heat pumps do outside temperature from +43C to -25C. i've seen -30C and +48C in some models Also, installation for split units is cheap around here
- BeetleB 3y ago
  Split units in the US tend to be crazy expensive. When I was shopping for an AC, it was definitely a few thousand more than a regular (central) AC. I know folks in other countries buy it all the time, so it must be cheaper there.
- pandaman 3y ago
  "Cooling" and "heating" just means the inside coil is colder/warmer than the outside, it does not mean the inside temperature will be comfortable for everyone. Neither while cooling nor while heating.
  - out_of_protocol 3y ago
    Could you please explain what you mean? Split system in question is air-air, heat transfers between blocks via special liquid, and warmer /colder air spread through a room via fan. There are no coils. Also, keeping comfortable temperature inside is function of heat loss via walls/windows and effective power of cooling/heating
    - pandaman 3y ago
      The special liquid is running through a system of tubes, called "coils" so it could exchange heat with the air. Keeping comfortable temperatures inside is also a function of the inside coil's temperature, which depends on the special liquid and the compressor. The higher temperature difference between the inside and outside coils, the higher compression is required and lower is the COP. Incidentally, the high inside coil's temperature is also required to heat the air inside at a reasonable rate.

tootie 3y ago

"much cheaper" I can believe it has a lower price, but I'm sure the cost is higher.

BeetleB 3y ago
Not in the least. With baseboard heating, the cost to heat my 1 bedroom apartment was on par with heating a 4 bedroom house (with gas). With a heat pump, at best it will be comparable.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  Comment you're replying to was noting the difference between price-to-consumer and cost-to-planet.
- qwebfdzsh 3y ago
  > With a heat pump, at best it will be comparable. Would it? e.g. according to https://c03.apogee.net/mvc/home/hes/land/el?utilityname=ure&spc=hcc https://c03.apogee.net/mvc/home/hes/land/el?utilityname=ure&... unless you live in area with extremely expensive gas and very cheap electricity it will always be cheaper.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    Thanks. Went to my gas and electric bills to look up the rates. Plugged in the numbers on the site. Heat pump estimated to cost me $400 extra per year for heating. If I were doing a brand new build, it may make some sense just because I like to be "green". But paying several thousand just for the install, only to end up paying more per year: Just doesn't make sense.
    - soco 3y ago
      I guess that's the crux of the green initiatives: people don't care about going green because they don't care about their environment footprint, thus generally don't care about the planet or other humans. Now if I phrased this too negative I'm sorry, but I guess I'm still right.
    - EmmaEngineer 3y ago
      I think that website is wrong or using obsolete data. I compared with another https://www.pickhvac.com/hvac/furnace-vs-heat-pump-cost/ https://www.pickhvac.com/hvac/furnace-vs-heat-pump-cost/ and it said that with exactly the same numbers the heatpump was 50% cheaper than gas. My own observation is that our heating cost reduced dramatically when we replaced gas with heat pump.
- mindslight 3y ago
  Electric resistive baseboard is obviously extremely foolish as a primary heating source. It's not a real point of comparison, but closer to a straw man. The point is exactly that electric heat pumps and gas are comparable. Which means that other things start to tip the scale like not having gas in the house (fire safety), having nicer air conditioning for the summer from the same unit, offsetting the grid electricity use with your own solar (lower generation in the winter, but it still helps), and envisioning grid scale sources moving towards renewables.
archontes 3y ago
I mathed it a bit. Assuming that there's no reclamation built in to current pricing, pricing in 100% reclamation would increase the cost of natural gas by ~40%. Still not more expensive than electricity if the article is to be taken at face value.

coldpie 3y ago

> Natural gas heating is much cheaper than electric. Does this include the cost of dealing with the effects of emitting CO2 into the atmosphere?

jonnycoder 3y ago
The global economy runs on energy and emitting co2. Last I checked majority of electricity is mainly produced from burning fossil fuels.
chrisco255 3y ago
You mean the costs of having to mow the lawn more or harvest more crops from all the increased plant growth? https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth-study-finds/ https://www.nasa.gov/technology/carbon-dioxide-fertilization...
abeppu 3y ago
But also, how green is your electricity? The "electrify everything b/c it's greener" approach seems currently largely aspirational. My understanding is that most states still get most of their electricity from fossil fuels. https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-generation-fuel-shares https://www.nei.org/resources/statistics/state-electricity-g...
- BeetleB 3y ago
  My electricity is 99% green (wind + solar).
  - abeppu 3y ago
    So is mine, supposedly, but overall we have a long way to go in switching the grid to renewables. The states that have the lowest dependence on fossil fuels for generation all have a significant amount of hydro power, which is probably not going to expand, and which can have its own environmental issues.
  - landemva 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ethbr1 3y ago

My lay understanding is that gas is generally produced as a byproduct of pumping oil. Consequently, as long as it's profitable to pump oil... more gas will be supplied to the market. Which means that gas prices will generally be "low" (relative to energy content?) close to oil producers, as it's still profitable to "produce" gas even at low market prices (because you're mainly producing/selling more oil).

landemva 3y ago
This is generally correct, that gas is often a byproduct. Consider the location and availability of gas pipeline and collector/compressor stations. And sometimes when pipelines are present they are already at capacity. It is a fascinating industry that is greening (less flaring, electric drilling).
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Yes, for most of us, the cost of natural gas is almost completely transportation costs. The gas itself is only a very small fraction of our bill.

tinus_hn 3y ago

Gas costs just what the gas company asks for it, which is equal to what they think you’ll pay for it. So it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to do this comparison to make some environmental point.

out_of_protocol 3y ago

just pulled typical split-system listing in my country: Gree Lomo Arctic R32 Inverter 2022 , about €740 (this is one of the top makers) energy used while cooling: 0.7kW energy used while heating: 0.7kW cooling power: 2.7kW heating power: 3kW 4x efficiency, yay! that's what heat pumps do outside temperature from +43C to -25C. i've seen -30C and +48C in some models Also, installation for split units is cheap around here

BeetleB 3y ago
Split units in the US tend to be crazy expensive. When I was shopping for an AC, it was definitely a few thousand more than a regular (central) AC. I know folks in other countries buy it all the time, so it must be cheaper there.
pandaman 3y ago
"Cooling" and "heating" just means the inside coil is colder/warmer than the outside, it does not mean the inside temperature will be comfortable for everyone. Neither while cooling nor while heating.
- out_of_protocol 3y ago
  Could you please explain what you mean? Split system in question is air-air, heat transfers between blocks via special liquid, and warmer /colder air spread through a room via fan. There are no coils. Also, keeping comfortable temperature inside is function of heat loss via walls/windows and effective power of cooling/heating
  - pandaman 3y ago
    The special liquid is running through a system of tubes, called "coils" so it could exchange heat with the air. Keeping comfortable temperatures inside is also a function of the inside coil's temperature, which depends on the special liquid and the compressor. The higher temperature difference between the inside and outside coils, the higher compression is required and lower is the COP. Incidentally, the high inside coil's temperature is also required to heat the air inside at a reasonable rate.