5 ms·

This feels like a feedback loop where political parties defund public colleges, it becomes worse, they say "look how bad it is" to justify more cuts. It becomes

This feels like a feedback loop where political parties defund public colleges, it becomes worse, they say "look how bad it is" to justify more cuts. It becomes worse... EDIT. I do think there is also a phenomenon that over time corruption (administration) seeps into organizations. Wish we could tackle that directly instead of defunding which may be short sighted.

rayiner 3y ago
Spending, including at public colleges, has skyrocketed over the last 20 years.
- bo1024 3y ago
  Tuition has skyrocketed, public funding has decreased (if not "plummeted"). e.g. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r...
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Spending still went up. So it doesn’t make sense to say, as OP did, that cuts made higher education “worse.”
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    This doesn't look like plummeted to me. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184069/federal-funds-for-education-and-research/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20about%20174.9%20billion,programs%20in%20the%20United%20States https://www.statista.com/statistics/184069/federal-funds-for....
    - bo1024 3y ago
      Local and state funding of education is much higher than federal funding.
- twelfthnight 3y ago
  It's interesting that administration and spending has gone up at the same time funding has gone down. My argument is that defunding isn't doing anything to combat the higher ed corruption. It's hurting students and leading to folks (rightfully) questioning the value of college. This leads to a society that isn't educated and makes it difficult to compete globally. Would love if we could have public pressure to both fix higher ed corruption and also fund public schools as an investment in America's future (and maybe even self defense).
  - lispisok 3y ago
    >It's interesting that administration and spending has gone up at the same time funding has gone down. It's because state funding has become a small fraction of total income for many universities. It sounds counter-intuitive but giving universities more money will not solve the cost problem. University spending is out of control
lotsofpulp 3y ago
There is a missing step in the middle. It was “defund education, replace and enhance current funding with students’ and parents’ future funds, enjoy lower taxes (during the first half of scheme)”. During the latter half, you get to watch the purchasing price of the dollar go down as the untenable debt is papered over.
justrealist 3y ago
Dumping more money into college is like dumping more raw garbage onto your kitchen floor and complaining that it didn't solve the rat problem. The problem with higher education is that the trough of unaccountable money is bottomless, and it attracts grifters, ideologues, lazy bureaucrats, and all other types of useless drains on society. None of the major problems in higher education are something you can pay to make go away.
- twelfthnight 3y ago
  This is definitely a problem. But we still need higher education as a society. I think there must be some third way between just throwing money into the pockets of university presidents and defunding it and creating an anti-intellectual society at a crisis point for America.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    > But we still need higher education as a society. This is always claimed, and quite enthusiastically. I don't ask this rhetorically: what do we need it for? No one can seem to decide. When graduates can't get decent jobs that let them live, let alone pay back the student loans, there's a chorus of "it's not vocational school". Yet, that's what many are seeking, what they need. If college doesn't serve that purpose, then we should at least reduce capacity by that much, shouldn't we? Others say that it would be wrong to try to send everyone to vocational training, that the world's so much better when they get some sort of liberal arts education. That they're "better people" and "better citizens". Ignoring how politically fraught that is, and just assuming that it's true, no one can afford that. Only the rich were able to afford that for their children a century ago. We can't afford it as a country, because we're sending x100 more kids to do that, and it costs much more than x100 to send x100 to college. The government can't afford that. And if it tried, it would water down that liberal arts education to make it as cheap as possible, until it's worthless even for what you wanted it to be. It ends up being a way to extend keeping those kids out of the job market, so older people don't have quite so much competition. If there ever was a third way, I think we missed the opportunity and that it no longer exists.
Aurornis 3y ago
> This feels like a feedback loop where political parties defund public colleges, it becomes worse, they say "look how bad it is" to justify more cuts. It becomes worse... What cuts? Spending on public college is up and spending on private colleges is way up. The problems aren’t related to funding deficits.
- twelfthnight 3y ago
  Here's some context: https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/state-funding-higher-education-still-lagging https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/state-fundin...
- bo1024 3y ago
  "Most Americans don’t realize state funding for higher ed fell by billions" https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r...
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    to put a finer point on it, spending is up because the population is forced to pay more because the government isn't.
renewiltord 3y ago
“If money doesn’t solve the problem, you aren’t using enough” seems to be the watchword. I wonder if there is some upper limit of spending where proponents of public schools, transit, police, universities, or healthcare will say “okay, you’re right. Spending didn’t help”.

rayiner 3y ago

Spending, including at public colleges, has skyrocketed over the last 20 years.

bo1024 3y ago
Tuition has skyrocketed, public funding has decreased (if not "plummeted"). e.g. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r...
- rayiner 3y ago
  Spending still went up. So it doesn’t make sense to say, as OP did, that cuts made higher education “worse.”
- JamesBarney 3y ago
  This doesn't look like plummeted to me. https://www.statista.com/statistics/184069/federal-funds-for-education-and-research/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20about%20174.9%20billion,programs%20in%20the%20United%20States https://www.statista.com/statistics/184069/federal-funds-for....
  - bo1024 3y ago
    Local and state funding of education is much higher than federal funding.
twelfthnight 3y ago
It's interesting that administration and spending has gone up at the same time funding has gone down. My argument is that defunding isn't doing anything to combat the higher ed corruption. It's hurting students and leading to folks (rightfully) questioning the value of college. This leads to a society that isn't educated and makes it difficult to compete globally. Would love if we could have public pressure to both fix higher ed corruption and also fund public schools as an investment in America's future (and maybe even self defense).
- lispisok 3y ago
  >It's interesting that administration and spending has gone up at the same time funding has gone down. It's because state funding has become a small fraction of total income for many universities. It sounds counter-intuitive but giving universities more money will not solve the cost problem. University spending is out of control

lotsofpulp 3y ago

There is a missing step in the middle. It was “defund education, replace and enhance current funding with students’ and parents’ future funds, enjoy lower taxes (during the first half of scheme)”. During the latter half, you get to watch the purchasing price of the dollar go down as the untenable debt is papered over.

justrealist 3y ago

Dumping more money into college is like dumping more raw garbage onto your kitchen floor and complaining that it didn't solve the rat problem. The problem with higher education is that the trough of unaccountable money is bottomless, and it attracts grifters, ideologues, lazy bureaucrats, and all other types of useless drains on society. None of the major problems in higher education are something you can pay to make go away.

twelfthnight 3y ago
This is definitely a problem. But we still need higher education as a society. I think there must be some third way between just throwing money into the pockets of university presidents and defunding it and creating an anti-intellectual society at a crisis point for America.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > But we still need higher education as a society. This is always claimed, and quite enthusiastically. I don't ask this rhetorically: what do we need it for? No one can seem to decide. When graduates can't get decent jobs that let them live, let alone pay back the student loans, there's a chorus of "it's not vocational school". Yet, that's what many are seeking, what they need. If college doesn't serve that purpose, then we should at least reduce capacity by that much, shouldn't we? Others say that it would be wrong to try to send everyone to vocational training, that the world's so much better when they get some sort of liberal arts education. That they're "better people" and "better citizens". Ignoring how politically fraught that is, and just assuming that it's true, no one can afford that. Only the rich were able to afford that for their children a century ago. We can't afford it as a country, because we're sending x100 more kids to do that, and it costs much more than x100 to send x100 to college. The government can't afford that. And if it tried, it would water down that liberal arts education to make it as cheap as possible, until it's worthless even for what you wanted it to be. It ends up being a way to extend keeping those kids out of the job market, so older people don't have quite so much competition. If there ever was a third way, I think we missed the opportunity and that it no longer exists.

Aurornis 3y ago

> This feels like a feedback loop where political parties defund public colleges, it becomes worse, they say "look how bad it is" to justify more cuts. It becomes worse... What cuts? Spending on public college is up and spending on private colleges is way up. The problems aren’t related to funding deficits.

twelfthnight 3y ago
Here's some context: https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/state-funding-higher-education-still-lagging https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/state-fundin...
bo1024 3y ago
"Most Americans don’t realize state funding for higher ed fell by billions" https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r...
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  to put a finer point on it, spending is up because the population is forced to pay more because the government isn't.

renewiltord 3y ago

“If money doesn’t solve the problem, you aren’t using enough” seems to be the watchword. I wonder if there is some upper limit of spending where proponents of public schools, transit, police, universities, or healthcare will say “okay, you’re right. Spending didn’t help”.