3 ms·

While enjoying my fresh wok lunch in Amsterdam, I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter,

While enjoying my fresh wok lunch in Amsterdam, I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. The crazy thing about this? They are just centimetres apart! In fact, they are so close that the staff member peeks at the display to get a head start on picking the right vegetables – all without any words spoken. Now, I get it: modern technology allows us to be more efficient, but I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore. I decided to dive into this and do a little experiment: talk (more often) to strangers. I made this blog post to tell you about it, give it a try!

jjice 3y ago
On that specific example, I have a drugstore near my home that I go to regularly for miscellaneous things. There are one or two humans at checkouts, and two self checkouts. The self checkout is almost always (with the only exception being someone who hasn't used the machine before) much faster. I'm talking like half or a third the time to use. Same with the grocery stores near me. Nothing wrong with the cashiers, but it's just so much faster to checkout for myself. I've found the same at restaurants as well. I get full exploration of the options at a kiosk, kind of like the benefits of a GUI vs TUI interface. The menu rarely has all the options (at least around me).
AlecSchueler 3y ago
I talk to strangers all the time. I'm from abroad and agree that it's a pity here in the Netherlands that it's not more common or accepted. But I still prefer digital kiosks. It gives me more time to go over the menu and compare the prices of different combinations, discover more options, and I can give more exact instructions about how I need it to be prepared etc. Talking to strangers is fantastic but the meaningful difference between given your Big Mac order to a human rather than a screen is minimal.
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  The screen never smiles. It never makes eye contact. Sometimes the people do.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    I understand that but I speak with many other smiling eye contracting people throughout the day who also converse with me and get to know me outside of my wedding no cheese on my burger. Like I say it's great to meet new people and to build human connection in your life. I'm just not convinced that avoiding order screens is the thing to focus on for achieving that goal.
    - sph 3y ago
      Reading the rest of the comments, it's like there's a huge contingent of people that just hate interacting with other humans and it's terrifying. I am an introvert, not great at striking conversations with strangers, yet I must be one one of the most extroverted people in this thread. "It's exhausting to say no to a person." Like, really?
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        Hmm, maybe that's it. I also am an introvert, though an extroverted introvert - I need some human contact, but I also find it draining in much more than small doses. So maybe that's why I like the checkout line - it's a socially-appropriate human contact that I can cause to happen just by getting in the line.
        sph 3y ago
        Same, there is a difference between being an introvert and a misanthrope. Saying hello, a couple well-rehearsed words, thank you with half a smile is just enough day-in-day-out social interaction to keep me sane and recharge my tiny social energy stores. Maybe it's because in Europe where I live store clerks are supposed to put a little effort in being polite if not welcoming. Interacting only with machines is the saddest thing I can imagine doing for myself.
petercooper 3y ago
I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore. I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. I often had orders misheard or misunderstood and prefer to explicitly select and see what I want in an unambiguous way, if I can. Even with something as a single drink this can become a problem.. a venti soy mocha frappuccino with vegan whipped cream or whatever, let alone when you might have several people's orders to make at once and not mess up. Talking to strangers is great fun, and the ambiguity there can make it more so! Relaying and verifying precise information to a stranger? Not fun.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  > I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. Yeah, I admire the patience of people who have the energy/patience/motivation to overcome misunderstanding with other people. I also dislike all sorts of ML/AI/algo features for similar reasons, when it pretends to be a machine but is vague like human (or worse) it's the worst.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Curiously I've had different experiences with automation. When Burger King started with it, they'd punch in your order (hopefully correctly) then print it and post it where the kitchen could see it. Then read it out over a loudspeaker in the kitchen. The cooks would do whatever back there, put it in a bag and staple some random receipt to the bag. You'd get (some) bag with some receipt and probably not your order. In a group of five or six, routinely three of us had to go back and get it fixed. It was a standing joke. So automation has to be done right or it's just another chance to introduce noise in the signal.
rambambram 3y ago
In the supermarket it's 50/50 for me, sometimes the selfscan checkout, other times I put my groceries on the conveyor belt. On the way to the supermarket though, I made a habit of smiling, greeting and eye contact with everybody I encounter. It always adds something extra to the day, greeting a stranger and having a short connection. Always. I had to practice a bit, because not getting any acknowledgement back might feel as a discard at first. Not anymore. BTW, do you see any difference between Amsterdam and Limburg?
- willemlaurentz 3y ago
  Here in Limburg folks speak in their own dialect. They immediately hear that I am "not one of them" (although I understand their language well). Sometimes that's an advantage (as it invokes curiosity), but moreover they'll treat you with a little more "distance"; I often feel an outsider here. In Amsterdam it greatly differs per area. My office is located in Amsterdam-Zuidoost where a lot of different cultures mix and mingle. In that neighbourhood I feel particularly 'free' to talk to strangers. My experience may be biased however as I know these folks a little better because of my work as volunteer in Amsterdam Venserpolder (another post on that can be found here: http://willem.com/blog/volunteer http://willem.com/blog/volunteer). I try to balance it, like yourself. It also depends on my 'mood and energy', with two young kids I sometimes don't have the "power" to engage in talking to strangers - but when I do, it is often very rewarding.
arp242 3y ago
> we prefer not to talk to each other anymore The "we" here being "The Dutch". Pretty much everywhere (other than Eastern Europe maybe) is it easier to talk to random strangers. I've also never seen any place where it's more socially accepted to be a complete dickhead to strangers (other than locals in overcrowded tourists destinations, but that's a special case). After spending a few years abroad I found it absolutely shocking.
hospitalJail 3y ago
> I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. The crazy thing about this? This reduces costs by reducing man hours. This increases communication since you are not playing telephone. Literally everyone wins. Wouldn't you rather spend the 20 seconds talking to your buddy or 20 seconds asking where to put the credit card?
Terr_ 3y ago
> other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. I just assume those humans at the workplace have other tasks--even just idle daydreams--they'd rather be spending their time on, especially when they aren't making signals that they'd love to chat.
concordDance 3y ago
I talk to strangers and also will use a digital kiosk where possible. I hadn't realised the incongruity until you just pointed it out... I suspect its because I generally talk to strangers to have a proper multiminute convo and find brief interactions either pointless or stressful.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Great idea, and worth mentioning! Every day I talk to random people. Eat breakfast at a lunch counter and greet anybody who sits nearby. Last one was a medical student, asked if he knew my daughter-in-law, he remembered her! She's on to Residency now; he's doing some rounds or something, he wasn't clear, but it was his day off(!) and he planned to slack, take a walk, anything but be in the hospital. I know all the staff at the diner by name, and something about their lives. I've seen Steven's brother's wedding pictures, know about Izzy's poor puppy and his problems. Stephanie is looking for work in marketing management. Madison has been working the family restaurant business since she was four! The grocery-store mention works for me too. I say something about whatever folks have going on. "Wow you buy healthier stuff than me!" is a good start, even if it isn't true. Or "You must be shopping for a crew!" gets a good response - everybody like to talk about their kids. Or even "Wow it's raining cats and dogs!" and suchlike. I endorse this idea, that we're all passengers on this trip and should get to know our nearby voyagers if at all possible.
solumunus 3y ago
For me, at a fast food place I massively prefer the digital kiosk because it allows me to browse the menu in detail. They usually don’t have a full detailed paper menu so this is the best alternative. If I ask questions at the counter, at some point I feel pressured and just pick something because I feel I’m taking up too much time. It’s just a better, more accurate ordering experience for me.
ryan_lane 3y ago
I understand that this may give you a bit of joy, but I beg you to reconsider randomly talking to people on the street. I know you're trying to judge whether folks are open to it based on body language, but you need to understand that people who start conversations with strangers tend to be socially awkward and potentially dangerous. There's a reason strangers don't talk to each other. Folks are conditioned to respond to these people without acting scared or unwilling because they don't want to be physically or verbally attacked. This is especially true for women. You may think that someone is open, but for some of them, they're actually scared of you. Your bit of joy is their bit of fear. Even your initial anecdote shows you're missing some social clues. Service workers don't want to talk to you. They're paid to interact with you. Yes, some may be extroverts and enjoy having a conversation. Others may dread folks starting long awkward conversations that they have no way to escape. There's socially acceptable places to have conversations with strangers. Bars (to a point), social activities meant for socializing, hobby communities, etc. This is a way better way to get social interaction, and one where you're going to generally have more rewarding interaction as people are there for that reason and are open to it.

jjice 3y ago

On that specific example, I have a drugstore near my home that I go to regularly for miscellaneous things. There are one or two humans at checkouts, and two self checkouts. The self checkout is almost always (with the only exception being someone who hasn't used the machine before) much faster. I'm talking like half or a third the time to use. Same with the grocery stores near me. Nothing wrong with the cashiers, but it's just so much faster to checkout for myself. I've found the same at restaurants as well. I get full exploration of the options at a kiosk, kind of like the benefits of a GUI vs TUI interface. The menu rarely has all the options (at least around me).

AlecSchueler 3y ago

I talk to strangers all the time. I'm from abroad and agree that it's a pity here in the Netherlands that it's not more common or accepted. But I still prefer digital kiosks. It gives me more time to go over the menu and compare the prices of different combinations, discover more options, and I can give more exact instructions about how I need it to be prepared etc. Talking to strangers is fantastic but the meaningful difference between given your Big Mac order to a human rather than a screen is minimal.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
The screen never smiles. It never makes eye contact. Sometimes the people do.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  I understand that but I speak with many other smiling eye contracting people throughout the day who also converse with me and get to know me outside of my wedding no cheese on my burger. Like I say it's great to meet new people and to build human connection in your life. I'm just not convinced that avoiding order screens is the thing to focus on for achieving that goal.
  - sph 3y ago
    Reading the rest of the comments, it's like there's a huge contingent of people that just hate interacting with other humans and it's terrifying. I am an introvert, not great at striking conversations with strangers, yet I must be one one of the most extroverted people in this thread. "It's exhausting to say no to a person." Like, really?
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      Hmm, maybe that's it. I also am an introvert, though an extroverted introvert - I need some human contact, but I also find it draining in much more than small doses. So maybe that's why I like the checkout line - it's a socially-appropriate human contact that I can cause to happen just by getting in the line.
      - sph 3y ago
        Same, there is a difference between being an introvert and a misanthrope. Saying hello, a couple well-rehearsed words, thank you with half a smile is just enough day-in-day-out social interaction to keep me sane and recharge my tiny social energy stores. Maybe it's because in Europe where I live store clerks are supposed to put a little effort in being polite if not welcoming. Interacting only with machines is the saddest thing I can imagine doing for myself.

petercooper 3y ago

I think I might be witnessing something deeper: we prefer not to talk to each other anymore. I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. I often had orders misheard or misunderstood and prefer to explicitly select and see what I want in an unambiguous way, if I can. Even with something as a single drink this can become a problem.. a venti soy mocha frappuccino with vegan whipped cream or whatever, let alone when you might have several people's orders to make at once and not mess up. Talking to strangers is great fun, and the ambiguity there can make it more so! Relaying and verifying precise information to a stranger? Not fun.

throwaway290 3y ago
> I'm happy to smalltalk with strangers, but I use the machines as I hate ambiguity. Yeah, I admire the patience of people who have the energy/patience/motivation to overcome misunderstanding with other people. I also dislike all sorts of ML/AI/algo features for similar reasons, when it pretends to be a machine but is vague like human (or worse) it's the worst.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Curiously I've had different experiences with automation. When Burger King started with it, they'd punch in your order (hopefully correctly) then print it and post it where the kitchen could see it. Then read it out over a loudspeaker in the kitchen. The cooks would do whatever back there, put it in a bag and staple some random receipt to the bag. You'd get (some) bag with some receipt and probably not your order. In a group of five or six, routinely three of us had to go back and get it fixed. It was a standing joke. So automation has to be done right or it's just another chance to introduce noise in the signal.

rambambram 3y ago

In the supermarket it's 50/50 for me, sometimes the selfscan checkout, other times I put my groceries on the conveyor belt. On the way to the supermarket though, I made a habit of smiling, greeting and eye contact with everybody I encounter. It always adds something extra to the day, greeting a stranger and having a short connection. Always. I had to practice a bit, because not getting any acknowledgement back might feel as a discard at first. Not anymore. BTW, do you see any difference between Amsterdam and Limburg?

willemlaurentz 3y ago
Here in Limburg folks speak in their own dialect. They immediately hear that I am "not one of them" (although I understand their language well). Sometimes that's an advantage (as it invokes curiosity), but moreover they'll treat you with a little more "distance"; I often feel an outsider here. In Amsterdam it greatly differs per area. My office is located in Amsterdam-Zuidoost where a lot of different cultures mix and mingle. In that neighbourhood I feel particularly 'free' to talk to strangers. My experience may be biased however as I know these folks a little better because of my work as volunteer in Amsterdam Venserpolder (another post on that can be found here: http://willem.com/blog/volunteer http://willem.com/blog/volunteer). I try to balance it, like yourself. It also depends on my 'mood and energy', with two young kids I sometimes don't have the "power" to engage in talking to strangers - but when I do, it is often very rewarding.

arp242 3y ago

> we prefer not to talk to each other anymore The "we" here being "The Dutch". Pretty much everywhere (other than Eastern Europe maybe) is it easier to talk to random strangers. I've also never seen any place where it's more socially accepted to be a complete dickhead to strangers (other than locals in overcrowded tourists destinations, but that's a special case). After spending a few years abroad I found it absolutely shocking.

hospitalJail 3y ago

> I noticed something odd: other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. The crazy thing about this? This reduces costs by reducing man hours. This increases communication since you are not playing telephone. Literally everyone wins. Wouldn't you rather spend the 20 seconds talking to your buddy or 20 seconds asking where to put the credit card?

Terr_ 3y ago

> other folks coming in for something to eat ignored the person standing at the counter, preferring to order through a digital kiosk. I just assume those humans at the workplace have other tasks--even just idle daydreams--they'd rather be spending their time on, especially when they aren't making signals that they'd love to chat.

concordDance 3y ago

I talk to strangers and also will use a digital kiosk where possible. I hadn't realised the incongruity until you just pointed it out... I suspect its because I generally talk to strangers to have a proper multiminute convo and find brief interactions either pointless or stressful.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

Great idea, and worth mentioning! Every day I talk to random people. Eat breakfast at a lunch counter and greet anybody who sits nearby. Last one was a medical student, asked if he knew my daughter-in-law, he remembered her! She's on to Residency now; he's doing some rounds or something, he wasn't clear, but it was his day off(!) and he planned to slack, take a walk, anything but be in the hospital. I know all the staff at the diner by name, and something about their lives. I've seen Steven's brother's wedding pictures, know about Izzy's poor puppy and his problems. Stephanie is looking for work in marketing management. Madison has been working the family restaurant business since she was four! The grocery-store mention works for me too. I say something about whatever folks have going on. "Wow you buy healthier stuff than me!" is a good start, even if it isn't true. Or "You must be shopping for a crew!" gets a good response - everybody like to talk about their kids. Or even "Wow it's raining cats and dogs!" and suchlike. I endorse this idea, that we're all passengers on this trip and should get to know our nearby voyagers if at all possible.

solumunus 3y ago

For me, at a fast food place I massively prefer the digital kiosk because it allows me to browse the menu in detail. They usually don’t have a full detailed paper menu so this is the best alternative. If I ask questions at the counter, at some point I feel pressured and just pick something because I feel I’m taking up too much time. It’s just a better, more accurate ordering experience for me.

ryan_lane 3y ago

I understand that this may give you a bit of joy, but I beg you to reconsider randomly talking to people on the street. I know you're trying to judge whether folks are open to it based on body language, but you need to understand that people who start conversations with strangers tend to be socially awkward and potentially dangerous. There's a reason strangers don't talk to each other. Folks are conditioned to respond to these people without acting scared or unwilling because they don't want to be physically or verbally attacked. This is especially true for women. You may think that someone is open, but for some of them, they're actually scared of you. Your bit of joy is their bit of fear. Even your initial anecdote shows you're missing some social clues. Service workers don't want to talk to you. They're paid to interact with you. Yes, some may be extroverts and enjoy having a conversation. Others may dread folks starting long awkward conversations that they have no way to escape. There's socially acceptable places to have conversations with strangers. Bars (to a point), social activities meant for socializing, hobby communities, etc. This is a way better way to get social interaction, and one where you're going to generally have more rewarding interaction as people are there for that reason and are open to it.