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If you're smart about it you're not gonna have a very deep or wide dependency tree for your own deps. If you need more than maybe two of your own deps, maybe yo

If you're smart about it you're not gonna have a very deep or wide dependency tree for your own deps. If you need more than maybe two of your own deps, maybe you need to reconsider how you structure your libraries, or you can join multiple libraries into the same project/build system umbrella (e.g. glib/gobject or the whole of QtBase)

chalsprhebaodu 3y ago
Why is this inherently better than better tooling for dependency management?
josephg 3y ago
Why would I want to join unrelated modules together into a kitchen sink library? The only benefit of that is to work around bad dependency management systems that make dependencies a hassle to work with. But otherwise, they’re a bad idea. Packages should do one thing and do it well. If I want a good random number library, I don’t want to import bob’s junk draw of random code. I want a small, reusable random number library. I want one that I chose. And my users want one they chose. And if that choice is bad, I want to be able to replace it without throwing out half my ecosystem or breaking downstream compatibility. QtBase is a symptom of C++’s bad package management. 8 unrelated utilities should be in 8 small packages that users can pick and choose based on their needs.
- mid-kid 3y ago
  It's less a workaround around bad dependency management, and more about the fact that it's simply easier to reason about a smaller set of dependencies regardless of the ecosystem. This includes both vetting, ensuring version compatibility, checking license compatibility and reducing the SBOM, as well as governance over the project and integration between different modules. Too often have I seen the equivalents of frameworks in other languages being split over sometimes hundreds of packages, that don't always make it clear that they're to be updated in tandem, what their exact relationship is, and that the same organization manages all of them. As for QtBase, it's a superproject, but that doesn't mean that you can't use its individual modules separately, and depending on the distro (e.g. debian) install them separately as well. A singular project installing multiple related libraries makes a lot of sense.
  - josephg 3y ago
    > This includes both vetting, ensuring version compatibility, checking license compatibility and reducing the SBOM, as well as governance over the project and integration between different modules. Auditing large code bases takes disproportionately longer than auditing small code bases. So I don’t think that’s a win. License compatibility is trivial to check. SBOM is strictly larger if I pull in a kitchen sink package because I’m probably not using most of the stuff inside. Better to just pick out the components I want. The one thing I’ll grant you is that shared ownership and visibility means it’s less likely that one rogue person will sneak ransomware into the dependencies. Personally I’d love a capability based package manager that lets me pass a package exactly the capabilities it needs to do what I downloaded it for. Why does every package need access to my files when I install or run it? That’s ridiculous. Totally unnecessary and a massive security risk. We could solve that C++ style by hobbling package managers and using fewer, jumbo packages. But that doesn’t solve the root problem. I want a package system in a language which lets me pass capabilities to each library I use, when I need to use them. Eg “Please open your web server on the port associated with this capability token.” This needs language support too but it’d be so much better from a security point of view than anything that came before.
Ar-Curunir 3y ago
This is an example where your tooling limits your solution space. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a deep or wide dep tree.
SkiFire13 3y ago
> or you can join multiple libraries into the same project/build system umbrella (e.g. glib/gobject or the whole of QtBase) This also seems worse than the status quo. So instead of having 3 or 4 dependencies I now only one that combines 20 different ones I don't need.

chalsprhebaodu 3y ago

Why is this inherently better than better tooling for dependency management?

josephg 3y ago

Why would I want to join unrelated modules together into a kitchen sink library? The only benefit of that is to work around bad dependency management systems that make dependencies a hassle to work with. But otherwise, they’re a bad idea. Packages should do one thing and do it well. If I want a good random number library, I don’t want to import bob’s junk draw of random code. I want a small, reusable random number library. I want one that I chose. And my users want one they chose. And if that choice is bad, I want to be able to replace it without throwing out half my ecosystem or breaking downstream compatibility. QtBase is a symptom of C++’s bad package management. 8 unrelated utilities should be in 8 small packages that users can pick and choose based on their needs.

mid-kid 3y ago
It's less a workaround around bad dependency management, and more about the fact that it's simply easier to reason about a smaller set of dependencies regardless of the ecosystem. This includes both vetting, ensuring version compatibility, checking license compatibility and reducing the SBOM, as well as governance over the project and integration between different modules. Too often have I seen the equivalents of frameworks in other languages being split over sometimes hundreds of packages, that don't always make it clear that they're to be updated in tandem, what their exact relationship is, and that the same organization manages all of them. As for QtBase, it's a superproject, but that doesn't mean that you can't use its individual modules separately, and depending on the distro (e.g. debian) install them separately as well. A singular project installing multiple related libraries makes a lot of sense.
- josephg 3y ago
  > This includes both vetting, ensuring version compatibility, checking license compatibility and reducing the SBOM, as well as governance over the project and integration between different modules. Auditing large code bases takes disproportionately longer than auditing small code bases. So I don’t think that’s a win. License compatibility is trivial to check. SBOM is strictly larger if I pull in a kitchen sink package because I’m probably not using most of the stuff inside. Better to just pick out the components I want. The one thing I’ll grant you is that shared ownership and visibility means it’s less likely that one rogue person will sneak ransomware into the dependencies. Personally I’d love a capability based package manager that lets me pass a package exactly the capabilities it needs to do what I downloaded it for. Why does every package need access to my files when I install or run it? That’s ridiculous. Totally unnecessary and a massive security risk. We could solve that C++ style by hobbling package managers and using fewer, jumbo packages. But that doesn’t solve the root problem. I want a package system in a language which lets me pass capabilities to each library I use, when I need to use them. Eg “Please open your web server on the port associated with this capability token.” This needs language support too but it’d be so much better from a security point of view than anything that came before.

Ar-Curunir 3y ago

This is an example where your tooling limits your solution space. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a deep or wide dep tree.

SkiFire13 3y ago

> or you can join multiple libraries into the same project/build system umbrella (e.g. glib/gobject or the whole of QtBase) This also seems worse than the status quo. So instead of having 3 or 4 dependencies I now only one that combines 20 different ones I don't need.