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If you’re earning 5 times median wages it might work out - America looks after it’s rich. If you’re on less then not likely But remember it’s not just your ba

If you’re earning 5 times median wages it might work out - America looks after it’s rich. If you’re on less then not likely But remember it’s not just your bank balance. Do you really want to live in a society where your neighbour can’t afford treatment for cancer? Or where your nephew gets weekly “active shooter” drills? Where you get two weeks a year holiday if you’re lucky?

i_am_a_peasant 3y ago
> Do you really want to live in a society where your neighbour can’t afford treatment for cancer? Maybe? I would like to live in a society where there's no hard ceiling on what you can achieve if you have the competency and some luck. Do you think it's easier to become a millionaire in the EU or the US? It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US.
- kgabis 3y ago
  Social mobility is much higher in the EU than in the US [0]. Being a millionaire in the US still doesn't guarantee that you won't go bankrupt due to a cancer treatment. [0] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...
  - zpeti 3y ago
    This is not an equivalent comparison. In Europe many cancer treatments are simply not paid for by social health care, because it's too expensive or experimental. Rich people still go to private health care providers for more niche treatments, or simply for shorter waiting lists. What you have in Europe is - long wait lists, for everyone, and fewer numbers of actual treatments (plus many things not covered by social health care, e.g. dentists) What you have in US is - no wait lists, healthcare that's probably 2-3x as expensive, but you actually can get the best of the best treatment if you pay for it Clearly for poorer layers of society the US system is bad. But for society as a whole I would question which system is actually better. They both have bad and good parts. To be honest if the US actually implemented a real market system for health care, and prices would drop a bit (with the kind of stuff Mark Cuban is building), the US health system would be FAR superior than Europe, even if its not free.
    - kgabis 3y ago
      It's quite obvious which system is better if you look at life expectancy and infant mortality.
    - dukeyukey 3y ago
      > Rich people still go to private health care providers for more niche treatments, or simply for shorter waiting lists. You say rich, but private healthcare is a pretty normal benefit for people working in professional jobs. I'm on my third tech job and I've never not had some level of private insurance benefit.
      - zpeti 3y ago
        So, this actually reinforces my point, many many people in Europe have private health insurance despite having free healthcare supposedely. If european healthcare was so amazing AND free, why would people do this? It makes no sense. Of course it does when you realise the cost of free healthcare, which is that it just isn't that great in terms of quality, or you have insane waiting lists, even if it is free.
        kgabis 3y ago
        You're missing the cost of people not seeing a professional until it's very late into their illness and have to either undergo expensive procedures, end up disabled or die. Which is exactly what is happening in the US and is reflected by life expectancy. Private healthcare is just too expensive to the society as a whole. And you keep saying insane waiting lists, but critical procedures are prioritised accordingly and you don't have to wait long if you have a heart disease or cancer. Just to be clear, all healthcare systems have their own problems and not one is perfect, but the one in US is absurdly bad.
        zpeti 3y ago
        Blaming short life expectancy on the US healthcare system is pointing to a tree in a forest. There are A LOT of reasons for this. For example fentanyl probably took quite a bit off it, considering over 200,000 people are dead at this point from it. So does the obesity crisis. Now - I think we are probably more in agreement than not, I think there are huge issues with the US healthcare system, the entire fentanyl crises WAS created by the healthcare system, but still - I don't think the root issue, or problem to be solved is private vs public. Switching to public would just mean another set of problems. For the record, I'm not from the US, and I mostly use private healthcare, despite there being so called free healthcare available in my country. It's just terrible. So it's almost the same as the US - rich people get healthcare, poor don't.
  - kcb 3y ago
    Yes it does...what bizarre takes. Lack of health insurance affects a gap of people that don't qualify for public programs and can't afford private insurance. Many people with way less than a million dollars buy private health insurance.
- mft_ 3y ago
  There’s a lot more to social mobility than an individual’s ability to become a millionaire. You’d have to decide whether you agree with the methodology, but European nations feature highest in the ‘Global Social Mobility Index’ [0] while the US is 27th. [0] https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report....
  - mauvehaus 3y ago
    Merely saying the US is 27th doesn't actually mean much without knowing more about the distribution. There's still a shortest NBA player, after all. And I did look at the table. There's a difference of ~15 index points between 1st (85) and 27th (70). That still doesn't actually say much without knowing how they're calculated.
    - midasuni 3y ago
      OP said “ It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US.” But didn’t define it. GP pointed to a definition which shows that OP was wrong.
- matsemann 3y ago
  > I would like to live in a society where there's no hard ceiling on what you can achieve if you have the competency and some luck Then EU > US. In the EU most people have a shot at this, with free education and possibilities. In the US your chances are mostly tied to your parents' status. > It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US Maybe from middle class -> very rich. But from poor -> middle class Europe is absolutely better.
  - kortilla 3y ago
    Based on what? The middle class in Europe is worse off than the middle class in the US. So mobility from poor to middle class in Europe is a low bar.
    - katbyte 3y ago
      Define “worse” - in the eu they work less, have more vacation, better social safety net, great food transit, less crime less rape less murder, better healrhcare outcomes, and I think rank higher on happiness In the us they might have more money (to then spend on healrhcare etc) Which is “better”?
      - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
        [dead]
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        Mainly low income and unaffordable real estate (compared to the US)? I mean it depends, depending on where you live and where you go to crime is not necessarily such a big issue in the US. Healthcare outcomes are also heavily variable and depend a lot of income (and I’ not talking about the “1%”) but can be just as good or better in the US. If you’re below the average (income/wealth wise) and have other disadvantages you might certainly be better off in Europe. Otherwise (inherited wealth aside) US might be a better place to be depending on your personal preferences and priorities.
      - kortilla 3y ago
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US. What told you that? The median American is significantly less wealthy than the median Brit, despite similar homeowning rates and Americans having way more income. Most of Europe (plus the Anglo offshoots) have higher social mobility.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    To what degree is that because of inherited wealth? I’m not sure median wealth is a better indicator of social mobility than income.
- katbyte 3y ago
  When your friends, family, kids, are sick and unable to afford treatment or go bankrupt because of medical bills you may be singing a different tune unless you are either so totally selfish to ignore their plight or rich beyond millions to pay
ffgjgf1 3y ago
Would just > 100k (adjust by CoL depending on area) and decent employer provided insurance be enough? Healthcare is usually ~10% in Europe or less (if your income is high) in countries with privatized systems but most of that is clawed back with higher income taxes (unless you’re in Switzerland). In US you can still get semi-decent healthcare coverage as long as you’re employed and pay quite a bit less in taxes. All the other things you listed heavily depend on where you live and the company you work at?
hersko 3y ago
The best insurance I've ever had, by far, was when i was poor. NY states insurance covered everything for me and all my kids completely free (free for me, not the taxpayer). Now i get insurance through my well paying job and am paying ~$500/month (which is actually quite reasonable for 5 people) for far worse insurance coverage with an HSA i need to fund.

i_am_a_peasant 3y ago

> Do you really want to live in a society where your neighbour can’t afford treatment for cancer? Maybe? I would like to live in a society where there's no hard ceiling on what you can achieve if you have the competency and some luck. Do you think it's easier to become a millionaire in the EU or the US? It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US.

kgabis 3y ago
Social mobility is much higher in the EU than in the US [0]. Being a millionaire in the US still doesn't guarantee that you won't go bankrupt due to a cancer treatment. [0] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/americans-overestimate-social-mobility-in-their-country https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/02/14/american...
- zpeti 3y ago
  This is not an equivalent comparison. In Europe many cancer treatments are simply not paid for by social health care, because it's too expensive or experimental. Rich people still go to private health care providers for more niche treatments, or simply for shorter waiting lists. What you have in Europe is - long wait lists, for everyone, and fewer numbers of actual treatments (plus many things not covered by social health care, e.g. dentists) What you have in US is - no wait lists, healthcare that's probably 2-3x as expensive, but you actually can get the best of the best treatment if you pay for it Clearly for poorer layers of society the US system is bad. But for society as a whole I would question which system is actually better. They both have bad and good parts. To be honest if the US actually implemented a real market system for health care, and prices would drop a bit (with the kind of stuff Mark Cuban is building), the US health system would be FAR superior than Europe, even if its not free.
  - kgabis 3y ago
    It's quite obvious which system is better if you look at life expectancy and infant mortality.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    > Rich people still go to private health care providers for more niche treatments, or simply for shorter waiting lists. You say rich, but private healthcare is a pretty normal benefit for people working in professional jobs. I'm on my third tech job and I've never not had some level of private insurance benefit.
    - zpeti 3y ago
      So, this actually reinforces my point, many many people in Europe have private health insurance despite having free healthcare supposedely. If european healthcare was so amazing AND free, why would people do this? It makes no sense. Of course it does when you realise the cost of free healthcare, which is that it just isn't that great in terms of quality, or you have insane waiting lists, even if it is free.
      - kgabis 3y ago
        You're missing the cost of people not seeing a professional until it's very late into their illness and have to either undergo expensive procedures, end up disabled or die. Which is exactly what is happening in the US and is reflected by life expectancy. Private healthcare is just too expensive to the society as a whole. And you keep saying insane waiting lists, but critical procedures are prioritised accordingly and you don't have to wait long if you have a heart disease or cancer. Just to be clear, all healthcare systems have their own problems and not one is perfect, but the one in US is absurdly bad.
        zpeti 3y ago
        Blaming short life expectancy on the US healthcare system is pointing to a tree in a forest. There are A LOT of reasons for this. For example fentanyl probably took quite a bit off it, considering over 200,000 people are dead at this point from it. So does the obesity crisis. Now - I think we are probably more in agreement than not, I think there are huge issues with the US healthcare system, the entire fentanyl crises WAS created by the healthcare system, but still - I don't think the root issue, or problem to be solved is private vs public. Switching to public would just mean another set of problems. For the record, I'm not from the US, and I mostly use private healthcare, despite there being so called free healthcare available in my country. It's just terrible. So it's almost the same as the US - rich people get healthcare, poor don't.
- kcb 3y ago
  Yes it does...what bizarre takes. Lack of health insurance affects a gap of people that don't qualify for public programs and can't afford private insurance. Many people with way less than a million dollars buy private health insurance.
mft_ 3y ago
There’s a lot more to social mobility than an individual’s ability to become a millionaire. You’d have to decide whether you agree with the methodology, but European nations feature highest in the ‘Global Social Mobility Index’ [0] while the US is 27th. [0] https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_Social_Mobility_Report....
- mauvehaus 3y ago
  Merely saying the US is 27th doesn't actually mean much without knowing more about the distribution. There's still a shortest NBA player, after all. And I did look at the table. There's a difference of ~15 index points between 1st (85) and 27th (70). That still doesn't actually say much without knowing how they're calculated.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    OP said “ It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US.” But didn’t define it. GP pointed to a definition which shows that OP was wrong.
matsemann 3y ago
> I would like to live in a society where there's no hard ceiling on what you can achieve if you have the competency and some luck Then EU > US. In the EU most people have a shot at this, with free education and possibilities. In the US your chances are mostly tied to your parents' status. > It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US Maybe from middle class -> very rich. But from poor -> middle class Europe is absolutely better.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Based on what? The middle class in Europe is worse off than the middle class in the US. So mobility from poor to middle class in Europe is a low bar.
  - katbyte 3y ago
    Define “worse” - in the eu they work less, have more vacation, better social safety net, great food transit, less crime less rape less murder, better healrhcare outcomes, and I think rank higher on happiness In the us they might have more money (to then spend on healrhcare etc) Which is “better”?
    - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
      [dead]
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      Mainly low income and unaffordable real estate (compared to the US)? I mean it depends, depending on where you live and where you go to crime is not necessarily such a big issue in the US. Healthcare outcomes are also heavily variable and depend a lot of income (and I’ not talking about the “1%”) but can be just as good or better in the US. If you’re below the average (income/wealth wise) and have other disadvantages you might certainly be better off in Europe. Otherwise (inherited wealth aside) US might be a better place to be depending on your personal preferences and priorities.
    - kortilla 3y ago
dukeyukey 3y ago
> It feels like there's very little social mobility in Europe compared to the US. What told you that? The median American is significantly less wealthy than the median Brit, despite similar homeowning rates and Americans having way more income. Most of Europe (plus the Anglo offshoots) have higher social mobility.
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  To what degree is that because of inherited wealth? I’m not sure median wealth is a better indicator of social mobility than income.
katbyte 3y ago
When your friends, family, kids, are sick and unable to afford treatment or go bankrupt because of medical bills you may be singing a different tune unless you are either so totally selfish to ignore their plight or rich beyond millions to pay

ffgjgf1 3y ago

Would just > 100k (adjust by CoL depending on area) and decent employer provided insurance be enough? Healthcare is usually ~10% in Europe or less (if your income is high) in countries with privatized systems but most of that is clawed back with higher income taxes (unless you’re in Switzerland). In US you can still get semi-decent healthcare coverage as long as you’re employed and pay quite a bit less in taxes. All the other things you listed heavily depend on where you live and the company you work at?

hersko 3y ago

The best insurance I've ever had, by far, was when i was poor. NY states insurance covered everything for me and all my kids completely free (free for me, not the taxpayer). Now i get insurance through my well paying job and am paying ~$500/month (which is actually quite reasonable for 5 people) for far worse insurance coverage with an HSA i need to fund.