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Would you say the same about math or reading?

csnover 3y ago
I’m not the op—they explicitly stated programming is not a skill like reading or writing—but I’ll go down this rhetorical path for fun and say: sure, why not? The utopian aim of technology is all about offloading burdensome work so we can focus more on the things we enjoy. If reading is a burden to someone, why not let them use a TTS? If long division is a burden, why not let them use a pocket calculator? They’ll probably learn enough to get by even if they never get to the point of reading Dostoevsky by sight. Lest you say, “well but those skills are essential!”, humans needed food to survive before we needed mathematics or written language, yet we’ve been been OK outsourcing farming for at least a century because we’ve experienced how it frees us up to pursue other things. And, to that end, we’ll probably be facing some pretty extreme civilizational crisis if we get to the point that someone without basic maths skills can’t find a calculator.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  I'm not talking about dreams or utopia. Just real modern life - one is way behind opportunity wise if they can't read and can't do math. At some point, that wasn't the case. Many signs point to being able to write instructions for a computer being a core skill for a good life. If your kid rolls their eyes and says "no math/reading for me thanks", you don't just accept it and figure they'll find what they love - you figure some way to make them learn and it's at least a few months of hard work for a kid(and parent) to sort of get escape velocity . It's possible that programming will end up in the same spot.
  - bruce511 3y ago
    Possible but unlikely. I mean programming in the "code" sense. We all "program" computers every day (when you turn on a microwave, when you talk to Alexa, when you do a budget in Excel, or write a Doc in Word.) Coding is not an essential skill. It's clearly a useful skill, but pretty much no-one in my
  - bruce511 3y ago
    Possible but unlikely. I mean programming in the "code" sense. We all "program" computers every day (when you turn on a microwave, when you talk to Alexa, when you do a budget in Excel, or write a Doc in Word.) Coding is not an essential skill. It's clearly a useful skill, its a valuable skill, but pretty much no-one in my real life can code. And from what I've learned teaching others most people -can't- code, regardless of education. I fly to place all the time, but I outsource the piloting. Programmers both argue that coding should be learnt by everyone, and at the same time most that it's getting easier (and hence less valuable) to do it.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
That most people in the world get by just fine without them? Yeah, actually. Isn't the median reading level like 8th grade or something in the States?
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  Do they get by just fine without them? I haven't tried being a median person in the united states, it doesn't look easy tbh.
bruce511 3y ago
Reading is a foundational skill. (Its necessary as a precursor to pretty much everything.) Writing (as in can construct words) pretty much goes with reading. Writing (as in quality, coherent, communication) is clearly less ubiquitous. Math is something that everyone who can do math, thinks is essential. Unlike reading though there's a continum of skills from iteracy, to arithmetic, to calculus and so on. Very few people know the square root of -1 or use it once a year. Of course you meant "math" as in basic arithmetic. And sure life is easier with that than without it. But lots of kids go through life with very rudimentary math skills. They function just fine. Does good reading Writing and math skills open doors? Sure it does. Does knowledge of Word or Excel or Windows or Quickbooks open doors? Sure. Does knowing how to cook a meal, feed others, open doors? Sure. There are a million ways to add value to society. Coding is immensely valuable to those who can do it well. But it's not foundational like reading or writing.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm saying - it could be now, or it could be soon. Math and reading weren't always foundational, it's a pretty recent thing.
  - mike_hearn 3y ago
    Maths, yes, but it's also not really foundational. Most people don't need to do maths once they leave high school, not even basic arithmetic. Machines do it for them better than they ever could. The heavy emphasis on maths in the school curriculum is probably a mistake and should be rolled back. Reading and (basic) writing was always foundational. You can go back to ancient Egypt and there are merchants who have mastered a simplified form of hieroglyphs. They weren't doing maths any more sophisticated than adding and subtracting small numbers, but they needed to know writing.
    - danielmarkbruce 3y ago
      Reading can't have been always foundational. Most people couldn't read a few hundred years ago(according to practically any source ever). The printing press has been around less than a thousand years. Paper has only been around a few thousand years or something. Ancient Egypt is like 5 thousand years ago. The agricultural revolution is like 10 thousand years ago and the foundational skills would have changed from running, hunting, foraging to planning out fields, strength and other farming skills.Best guess is that humans have been around 100 thousand years give or take. What is foundational changes over time and depends on what skills you are trying to build. Given math and reading have only become foundational recently, there is no reason to think the skills considered to be foundational won't continue to evolve.
kumarvvr 3y ago
Reading is one of the major means of information gathering for humans, apart from introspection, inspection and vocal communication. It is not comparable.
- danielmarkbruce 3y ago
  It is now. It wasn't 200 years ago. Verbal communication was. In the very near future, the major means for getting anything done might well be producing instructions for a computer. Those who cannot do that might well be in a lot of trouble employment wise.

I’m not the op—they explicitly stated programming is not a skill like reading or writing—but I’ll go down this rhetorical path for fun and say: sure, why not? The utopian aim of technology is all about offloading burdensome work so we can focus more on the things we enjoy. If reading is a burden to someone, why not let them use a TTS? If long division is a burden, why not let them use a pocket calculator? They’ll probably learn enough to get by even if they never get to the point of reading Dostoevsky by sight. Lest you say, “well but those skills are essential!”, humans needed food to survive before we needed mathematics or written language, yet we’ve been been OK outsourcing farming for at least a century because we’ve experienced how it frees us up to pursue other things. And, to that end, we’ll probably be facing some pretty extreme civilizational crisis if we get to the point that someone without basic maths skills can’t find a calculator.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
I'm not talking about dreams or utopia. Just real modern life - one is way behind opportunity wise if they can't read and can't do math. At some point, that wasn't the case. Many signs point to being able to write instructions for a computer being a core skill for a good life. If your kid rolls their eyes and says "no math/reading for me thanks", you don't just accept it and figure they'll find what they love - you figure some way to make them learn and it's at least a few months of hard work for a kid(and parent) to sort of get escape velocity . It's possible that programming will end up in the same spot.
- bruce511 3y ago
  Possible but unlikely. I mean programming in the "code" sense. We all "program" computers every day (when you turn on a microwave, when you talk to Alexa, when you do a budget in Excel, or write a Doc in Word.) Coding is not an essential skill. It's clearly a useful skill, but pretty much no-one in my
- bruce511 3y ago
  Possible but unlikely. I mean programming in the "code" sense. We all "program" computers every day (when you turn on a microwave, when you talk to Alexa, when you do a budget in Excel, or write a Doc in Word.) Coding is not an essential skill. It's clearly a useful skill, its a valuable skill, but pretty much no-one in my real life can code. And from what I've learned teaching others most people -can't- code, regardless of education. I fly to place all the time, but I outsource the piloting. Programmers both argue that coding should be learnt by everyone, and at the same time most that it's getting easier (and hence less valuable) to do it.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

That most people in the world get by just fine without them? Yeah, actually. Isn't the median reading level like 8th grade or something in the States?

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
Do they get by just fine without them? I haven't tried being a median person in the united states, it doesn't look easy tbh.

bruce511 3y ago

Reading is a foundational skill. (Its necessary as a precursor to pretty much everything.) Writing (as in can construct words) pretty much goes with reading. Writing (as in quality, coherent, communication) is clearly less ubiquitous. Math is something that everyone who can do math, thinks is essential. Unlike reading though there's a continum of skills from iteracy, to arithmetic, to calculus and so on. Very few people know the square root of -1 or use it once a year. Of course you meant "math" as in basic arithmetic. And sure life is easier with that than without it. But lots of kids go through life with very rudimentary math skills. They function just fine. Does good reading Writing and math skills open doors? Sure it does. Does knowledge of Word or Excel or Windows or Quickbooks open doors? Sure. Does knowing how to cook a meal, feed others, open doors? Sure. There are a million ways to add value to society. Coding is immensely valuable to those who can do it well. But it's not foundational like reading or writing.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
Yeah, I'm saying - it could be now, or it could be soon. Math and reading weren't always foundational, it's a pretty recent thing.
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  Maths, yes, but it's also not really foundational. Most people don't need to do maths once they leave high school, not even basic arithmetic. Machines do it for them better than they ever could. The heavy emphasis on maths in the school curriculum is probably a mistake and should be rolled back. Reading and (basic) writing was always foundational. You can go back to ancient Egypt and there are merchants who have mastered a simplified form of hieroglyphs. They weren't doing maths any more sophisticated than adding and subtracting small numbers, but they needed to know writing.
  - danielmarkbruce 3y ago
    Reading can't have been always foundational. Most people couldn't read a few hundred years ago(according to practically any source ever). The printing press has been around less than a thousand years. Paper has only been around a few thousand years or something. Ancient Egypt is like 5 thousand years ago. The agricultural revolution is like 10 thousand years ago and the foundational skills would have changed from running, hunting, foraging to planning out fields, strength and other farming skills.Best guess is that humans have been around 100 thousand years give or take. What is foundational changes over time and depends on what skills you are trying to build. Given math and reading have only become foundational recently, there is no reason to think the skills considered to be foundational won't continue to evolve.

kumarvvr 3y ago

Reading is one of the major means of information gathering for humans, apart from introspection, inspection and vocal communication. It is not comparable.

danielmarkbruce 3y ago
It is now. It wasn't 200 years ago. Verbal communication was. In the very near future, the major means for getting anything done might well be producing instructions for a computer. Those who cannot do that might well be in a lot of trouble employment wise.