16 ms·

As the article says, it’s likely that the devs who previously would test their apps prior to release had higher quality apps just because they were experienced

by clnq 3y ago

As the article says, it’s likely that the devs who previously would test their apps prior to release had higher quality apps just because they were experienced and skilled devs, not because of an arbitrary number of people testing the app for an arbitrary length of time. If Google would want to get rid of shovelware on the Play Store, they know what to do - (edit: better) automated + human reviews, like Apple. That would be what would nip shovelware in the bud. But they’re just trying to outsource the cost of that. It feels like one of those Google initiatives that was started by someone who cared, then got watered down to the point of counter-productivity by MBA logic.

tadfisher 3y ago
They do have automated + manual reviews. I think the $99/yr developer account is what separates Google from Apple here, along with much stricter policy enforcement on the Apple side.
- dangus 3y ago
  I have to think that $99 a year keeps away a lot of people who aren’t serious, and maybe even discourages various scams and schemes that depend on flooding platforms with apps scammers know will get rejected eventually in a whack-a-mole fashion. If your account gets banned and you lose $99 before the scam paid off it’s not worth your time.
  - lakpan 3y ago
    I think you underestimate how much scamming pays. It’s much more than $99 per day, so unless Apple blocks the app immediately they’re still making money.
    - clnq 3y ago
      But not all crummy behavior, right? Things like ad-infested basic apps might be discouraged even with the $99. I am talking about apps like tip calculators, daily quote apps, and very basic games like slots that have no chance of being monetized well beyond ads.
      - realusername 3y ago
        What is discouraged is the solo devs making their first apps and the solo devs in poorer countries (but Apple lost those markets anyways). The scams and the useless apps have no problem paying a single 99$ bill.
        Testers20 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - stefandesu 3y ago
      Will Apple stay pay out the scam money if they ban you immediately?
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        They don’t ban you immediately.
        michaelmrose 3y ago
        They could hold funds for new unknown developers for 60 days for good behavior. During this time if you get banned they should seize the entire proceeds to refund to their users.
        lakpan 3y ago
        This would be great but in practice they'll just use third-party ad networks, which pay regardless of Apple's decision. It'll definitely break those pesky inflated subscriptions though.
    - michaelmrose 3y ago
      How about $99 to register plus $10,000 fine + 100% of proceeds of perfidy + termination for certain misbehavior + mandatory presence of someone company or individual present in a country willing to enforce such a provision. If you want it to really stick make them buy a bond against in such a jurisdiction. After one party has been burned for their 10k they'll find their former partner exceedingly aggressive in recovering their money and none willing to do business. Furthermore most of such abusive behavior is trivially recognizable based on dollar figures involved, behavior, organic reviews, complaints. In this day and age there isn't much excuse for a trillion dollar company not to have automated 99% of the situation and employ labor to handle the rest.
      - lakpan 3y ago
        Can companies actually enforce "fines"? The closest I can think of would be a "breach of contract" penalty, but you'd still have to go to court of file small claims for that. I don't see Apple getting into any of that to improve the quality of the App Store.
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    There are multimillion dollar scams on the App Store[1]: > That man’s name is Kosta Eleftheriou, and over the past few months, he’s made a convincing case that Apple is either uninterested or incompetent at stopping multimillion-dollar scams in its own App Store. He’s repeatedly found scam apps that prey on ordinary iPhone and iPad owners by luring them into a “free trial” of an app with seemingly thousands of fake 5-star reviews, only to charge them outrageous sums of money for a recurring subscription that many don’t understand how to cancel. “It’s a situation that most communities are blind to because of how Apple is essentially brainwashing people into believing the App Store is a trusted place,” he tells The Verge. The fee is nothing. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  Google charges developers fees, as well, when it comes to publishing.
  - tadfisher 3y ago
    It's a one-time fee for the developer account and it's $25, which is quite different from a $99/yr charge to keep your apps live on the App Store.
- clnq 3y ago
  I didn’t know Google reviewed apps manually as well. I thought it was all automated as I’ve not heard of an app not passing. There are even some people who have spoken about automating making and publishing shovelware apps for a time. It takes a bit of effort even to get an app on public TestFlight on Apple’s side. Plus the fee, which is reasonable for a thorough review. Anyways, I edited my comment to not misrepresent the Play Store process, thanks.
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    It's mostly automated but then you will get someone every so often that holds up your release, can only speak by quoting the guidelines, make you decipher their cryptic quote, just to find out that it's about some rule change from six months ago you missed in an email. It's even more fun when it's a purely administrative thing like updating information in a link on your developer profile, but they make you upload a near identical binary, since the automation has kicked in again and they can't rereview an already submitted and rejected app.
  - alias_neo 3y ago
    I can assure you, Google does have people review apps. Our app gets held up fairly regularly, I'm not sure why us in particular, but we have an app that requires our licensed service to use, quite often they'll muck up the registration process with the test accounts we provide (they're one-time) registration, and then hold up our app until we provide more test accounts for them to use. They also recently took issue with some functionality of our app that they claim existed (but doesn't) and forced us to update our privacy policy to mention it so we can get it through. I know for a fact, said functionality doesn't exist, because I lead the team that builds the backend, but there was just no arguing with them.
jayd16 3y ago
I don't really understand how this could stop shovelware. Shovelware devs have the bandwidth to get something tested on 20 devices. This would only stop one man passion projects. I wonder if its just a way to sell a cloud build and testing service.
- Testers20 3y ago
  [flagged]
clumsysmurf 3y ago
> If Google would want to get rid of shovelware on the Play Store, they know what to do - (edit: better) automated + human reviews They could also do something like a progressive tax, like per year (USD), based on apps submitted: 1 free; 2-5 apps $20 each; 6-10 apps $40 each; 10+ apps $100 each Nobody is putting out 10 high quality apps per year ;)
- happymellon 3y ago
  Couldn't I just create two accounts?
  - clumsysmurf 3y ago
    At the moment, you can. I have two accounts (by mistake). However, I'm not sure what the purpose of keeping 2 accounts active simultaneously is ... if one is banned, the other will be too (so there is no point in safety by numbers). In order for this progressive taxing scheme to work they would have to make sure each personal account is unique per person, and they are already increasing the requirements to verify your identification (all Android devs have to verify this information soon).
  - nine_k 3y ago
    Two, maybe. 100, with much more trouble.
littlecranky67 3y ago
To get rid of shovelware, Google should just add a search filter that allows filtering for "No In-App Purchases" and "Doesnt show ads" plus a "Costs money (no subscription)". But something tells me thats only good for the user, not the business.
- ssl232 3y ago
  You need F-Droid. It's not a silver bullet but the high ranked apps on there are great.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- 63 3y ago
  They could also start ordering search results by relevancy or quality instead of propensity to make money, but that won't happen either
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    It is so bad that in the official play store app ads potentially for competitors or irrelevant apps will appear before the item even when you search for the entire name of the app. This means that devs are incentivized to buy ads for their own name lest their competitor be listed first and if they don't you might well download malware. On net the play store is 100% useless because of ads and poor search. The only way to adequately search for apps is by using an actual search engine, even googles, in your mobile browser to find apps and then using the play store solely for installation. The play store is a product so bad if it wasn't required to install software it would have no users. It is the windows ME of google's product lines. It is so bad that Google ought to be embarrassed to show it off in public.
- KeplerBoy 3y ago
  Do these apps even exist anymore? I feel like they never really did on Android and are a dieing breed on iOS. Of course them being hard to find on the store, is part of why they don't exist in the first place. Fixing that would help.
majani 3y ago
Google's attachment to "low touch" approach to support is maniacal at this point. There's no use confronting them about it, they'll never change

by clnq 3y ago

tadfisher 3y ago

They do have automated + manual reviews. I think the $99/yr developer account is what separates Google from Apple here, along with much stricter policy enforcement on the Apple side.

dangus 3y ago
I have to think that $99 a year keeps away a lot of people who aren’t serious, and maybe even discourages various scams and schemes that depend on flooding platforms with apps scammers know will get rejected eventually in a whack-a-mole fashion. If your account gets banned and you lose $99 before the scam paid off it’s not worth your time.
- lakpan 3y ago
  I think you underestimate how much scamming pays. It’s much more than $99 per day, so unless Apple blocks the app immediately they’re still making money.
  - clnq 3y ago
    But not all crummy behavior, right? Things like ad-infested basic apps might be discouraged even with the $99. I am talking about apps like tip calculators, daily quote apps, and very basic games like slots that have no chance of being monetized well beyond ads.
    - realusername 3y ago
      What is discouraged is the solo devs making their first apps and the solo devs in poorer countries (but Apple lost those markets anyways). The scams and the useless apps have no problem paying a single 99$ bill.
      - Testers20 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - stefandesu 3y ago
    Will Apple stay pay out the scam money if they ban you immediately?
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      They don’t ban you immediately.
      - michaelmrose 3y ago
        They could hold funds for new unknown developers for 60 days for good behavior. During this time if you get banned they should seize the entire proceeds to refund to their users.
        lakpan 3y ago
        This would be great but in practice they'll just use third-party ad networks, which pay regardless of Apple's decision. It'll definitely break those pesky inflated subscriptions though.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    How about $99 to register plus $10,000 fine + 100% of proceeds of perfidy + termination for certain misbehavior + mandatory presence of someone company or individual present in a country willing to enforce such a provision. If you want it to really stick make them buy a bond against in such a jurisdiction. After one party has been burned for their 10k they'll find their former partner exceedingly aggressive in recovering their money and none willing to do business. Furthermore most of such abusive behavior is trivially recognizable based on dollar figures involved, behavior, organic reviews, complaints. In this day and age there isn't much excuse for a trillion dollar company not to have automated 99% of the situation and employ labor to handle the rest.
    - lakpan 3y ago
      Can companies actually enforce "fines"? The closest I can think of would be a "breach of contract" penalty, but you'd still have to go to court of file small claims for that. I don't see Apple getting into any of that to improve the quality of the App Store.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  There are multimillion dollar scams on the App Store[1]: > That man’s name is Kosta Eleftheriou, and over the past few months, he’s made a convincing case that Apple is either uninterested or incompetent at stopping multimillion-dollar scams in its own App Store. He’s repeatedly found scam apps that prey on ordinary iPhone and iPad owners by luring them into a “free trial” of an app with seemingly thousands of fake 5-star reviews, only to charge them outrageous sums of money for a recurring subscription that many don’t understand how to cancel. “It’s a situation that most communities are blind to because of how Apple is essentially brainwashing people into believing the App Store is a trusted place,” he tells The Verge. The fee is nothing. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...
heavyset_go 3y ago
Google charges developers fees, as well, when it comes to publishing.
- tadfisher 3y ago
  It's a one-time fee for the developer account and it's $25, which is quite different from a $99/yr charge to keep your apps live on the App Store.
clnq 3y ago
I didn’t know Google reviewed apps manually as well. I thought it was all automated as I’ve not heard of an app not passing. There are even some people who have spoken about automating making and publishing shovelware apps for a time. It takes a bit of effort even to get an app on public TestFlight on Apple’s side. Plus the fee, which is reasonable for a thorough review. Anyways, I edited my comment to not misrepresent the Play Store process, thanks.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  It's mostly automated but then you will get someone every so often that holds up your release, can only speak by quoting the guidelines, make you decipher their cryptic quote, just to find out that it's about some rule change from six months ago you missed in an email. It's even more fun when it's a purely administrative thing like updating information in a link on your developer profile, but they make you upload a near identical binary, since the automation has kicked in again and they can't rereview an already submitted and rejected app.
- alias_neo 3y ago
  I can assure you, Google does have people review apps. Our app gets held up fairly regularly, I'm not sure why us in particular, but we have an app that requires our licensed service to use, quite often they'll muck up the registration process with the test accounts we provide (they're one-time) registration, and then hold up our app until we provide more test accounts for them to use. They also recently took issue with some functionality of our app that they claim existed (but doesn't) and forced us to update our privacy policy to mention it so we can get it through. I know for a fact, said functionality doesn't exist, because I lead the team that builds the backend, but there was just no arguing with them.

jayd16 3y ago

I don't really understand how this could stop shovelware. Shovelware devs have the bandwidth to get something tested on 20 devices. This would only stop one man passion projects. I wonder if its just a way to sell a cloud build and testing service.

Testers20 3y ago
[flagged]

clumsysmurf 3y ago

> If Google would want to get rid of shovelware on the Play Store, they know what to do - (edit: better) automated + human reviews They could also do something like a progressive tax, like per year (USD), based on apps submitted: 1 free; 2-5 apps $20 each; 6-10 apps $40 each; 10+ apps $100 each Nobody is putting out 10 high quality apps per year ;)

happymellon 3y ago
Couldn't I just create two accounts?
- clumsysmurf 3y ago
  At the moment, you can. I have two accounts (by mistake). However, I'm not sure what the purpose of keeping 2 accounts active simultaneously is ... if one is banned, the other will be too (so there is no point in safety by numbers). In order for this progressive taxing scheme to work they would have to make sure each personal account is unique per person, and they are already increasing the requirements to verify your identification (all Android devs have to verify this information soon).
- nine_k 3y ago
  Two, maybe. 100, with much more trouble.

littlecranky67 3y ago

To get rid of shovelware, Google should just add a search filter that allows filtering for "No In-App Purchases" and "Doesnt show ads" plus a "Costs money (no subscription)". But something tells me thats only good for the user, not the business.

ssl232 3y ago
You need F-Droid. It's not a silver bullet but the high ranked apps on there are great.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
63 3y ago
They could also start ordering search results by relevancy or quality instead of propensity to make money, but that won't happen either
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  It is so bad that in the official play store app ads potentially for competitors or irrelevant apps will appear before the item even when you search for the entire name of the app. This means that devs are incentivized to buy ads for their own name lest their competitor be listed first and if they don't you might well download malware. On net the play store is 100% useless because of ads and poor search. The only way to adequately search for apps is by using an actual search engine, even googles, in your mobile browser to find apps and then using the play store solely for installation. The play store is a product so bad if it wasn't required to install software it would have no users. It is the windows ME of google's product lines. It is so bad that Google ought to be embarrassed to show it off in public.
KeplerBoy 3y ago
Do these apps even exist anymore? I feel like they never really did on Android and are a dieing breed on iOS. Of course them being hard to find on the store, is part of why they don't exist in the first place. Fixing that would help.

majani 3y ago

Google's attachment to "low touch" approach to support is maniacal at this point. There's no use confronting them about it, they'll never change