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China using largest known online disinformation operation to harass Americans

49 points by crazydoggers 3y ago

3seashells 3y ago
They are pretty easy to identify if you know the ring book and the talking points. Claim to be part of a group held dear by the audience. "As a Silicon valley company founder.." Antistatement: Im totally against <topic>, but <propaganda narrative talking points >..
tomalbrc 3y ago
[flagged]
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  Then tell your politicians to decouple from the US and fund their military escapades themselves...
  - kkzz99 3y ago
    I never understood why Americans think their military bases in Europe are any kind of altruism instead of what it actually is, military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation. Any form of European militaristic sovereignty was crushed by the US and always forced to be under the NATO umbrella.
    - Gibbon1 3y ago
      The US created for two purposes. Keep the Russians from invading western Europe. Keep Europeans from starting another world war. First world war millions of soldiers were sent to the slaughter. Second world war tens of millions were murdered in addition to millions of soldiers being slaughtered. With nukes in play a repeat just wasn't acceptable. You dislike that but we were successful. The US did try to bring China and Russia into the fold but that was a failure and has been abandoned.
      - kkzz99 3y ago
        The first general secretary of NATO put it best on what NATO always was meant to be: "To keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down". If you actually look at what happened in the years to come after that quote, it perfectly fits into that narrative. The assertion that "the US did try to bring China and Russia into the fold" is also quite acutely wrong. Remember when Yeltsin tried to join NATO after the end of the cold war, or how even Putin tried to integrate into NATO and the Western system? Who was it, that was vehemently opposed to that? Even more so is the possible Eurasian integration which US grand strategy has always seen as one of the worst case scenarios for US hegemony. You could call that a failure but you should assess on why it is one. The US China strategy was also always very obvious, open up their huge population for capitalist globalization and keep the sleeping dragon in a perpetual state of democratic dysfunction and underdevelopment (just look at India). What the US didn't expect was the iron grip of the CPC on power and economy, fully rejecting US planned shock therapy. The moment China became a state that could even think about challenging US hegemony was the moment the US completely pivoted to an aggressive containment strategy.
        crazydoggers 3y ago
        You make it sound like the US has a constant single minded strategy, but this flies in the face of how US foreign policy actually works. US foreign policy is typically reactionary. This was very apparent during Trumps tenure in which the foundations of NATO were being questioned. Even at this moment, during the current election cycle, we have a number of candidates who are talking about a more isolationist, laissez faire response to things, including the current conflicts. The US, being a country with democratically elected leader, has on many occasions through its history pivoted significantly in its foreign policy as certain parties and ideologies gain and lose traction. This is in clear and direct contrast to countries like Russia and China with governments run by small groups over many continuous decades directing specific foreign policy strategies. I make these arguments here to clarify how this account’s propaganda attempts to function, using emotional arguments and other logical fallacies to obfuscate facts. See other comments here, that this account is the type of account talked about in the CNN article.
        3y ago
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      > military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation Not true. In a military occupation, the occupier gets resources from the occupied net/net. Not the other way around. If not for the US, most of Europe would be speaking German or Russian. A divided Europe ruined the world with two world wars and global colonialism. Imagine what would happen if Nazi Germany had survived. The terrors of colonial Belgium would pale in comparison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Exploitation,_atrocities,_and_death_toll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Exploita...
    - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      Btw, just to clarify for you. China in Tibet is an example of military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation. 1. China profits from Tibet: YES 2. China selects Tibetan leaders: YES 3. China subjugates Tibet: YES None of that applies to US in Europe.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    They won't bite the hand that feeds them.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, regardless of which country you have a problem with. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
kkzz99 3y ago
[flagged]
- emchammer 3y ago
  Are you talking about the rift between supporters of Israel and those of Palestine? What does that have to do with disinformation from China?
  - crazydoggers 3y ago
    It doesn’t. This is one of the accounts talked about in the article. Read through the users previous comments. Young account, all comments primarily focus on anti US pro China sentiment.
    - kkzz99 3y ago
      The irony in your allegation is palpable. Anyone not following rabid anti-china lines MUST be a sockpuppet, bot, shill, or whatever, it can't possibly be a genuine opinion, which is exactly the stance of the article in question. As I said in another comment of mine where I was accused of the same: I generally don't comment, but I feel strongly about US-China relations, which makes me comment.
      - crazydoggers 3y ago
        The speed with which this response was made is telling. On a comment and thread many hours old. Your initial comment was at 1am Central Time. Within minutes of this comment, at 9am Central time you responded. These are clear indications of a monitored account. In many other of “your” comments it’s been pointed out that your statements are incorrect, and provably false. At that point it goes from opinion to misinformation, and propaganda. One cannot pretend that China is not a totalitarian system built, with clear and consistent human rights violations. Where those who oppose the party line disappear. Contrast that with the US, where a former president is in a very public and contentious court case, with open coverage. Totalitarian regimes such as China and Russia view democracy and freedom of speech as a weakness to be exploited. What they fail to realize is that truth wins out. You can only lie for so long before you run smack into the truth of matters. Until and if China ever embraces the UN declaration of human rights, including the ratification of the ICCPR, its intentions are clear. China specifically believes that maintaining the party stranglehold on the country trumps the notion of universal human rights. And please don’t reply trying to obfuscate the issues, throw other propaganda, or whatabout’isms around. The support of a government clearly in direct opposition to freedom of speech, human rights, and democratic institutions cannot be supported in any society that values freedom and democracy.
KwisatzHaderack 3y ago
> Another post claimed that former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is “riddled with scandals.” Not quite the example I would use as Chinese agents spreading “misinformation”.
- crazydoggers 3y ago
  I think the goal is to attempt to instill what they see as instability in our democracy. Throw around unfounded accusation and attempt to sow deepening discord along party lines. They see the January 6th attack on the capital along with the threats to hang Nancy Pelosi as successes along these lines. This type of tactic is a lot harder to recognize.
pauldenton 3y ago
Thanks CNN for informing us about the largest known online disinformation operation harassing Americans Next up, China and Saudi Arabia chairing the United Nations Human Rights Council informing us about how the rights of humans are being trampled
- dang 3y ago
  We've banned this account for using HN primarily for political battle. That's not allowed here, whatever your politics are*. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. * as a matter of fact, I don't even know what they are—we don't scan the comments for that

49 points by crazydoggers 3y ago

They are pretty easy to identify if you know the ring book and the talking points. Claim to be part of a group held dear by the audience. "As a Silicon valley company founder.." Antistatement: Im totally against <topic>, but <propaganda narrative talking points >..

tomalbrc 3y ago

[flagged]

boeingUH60 3y ago
Then tell your politicians to decouple from the US and fund their military escapades themselves...
- kkzz99 3y ago
  I never understood why Americans think their military bases in Europe are any kind of altruism instead of what it actually is, military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation. Any form of European militaristic sovereignty was crushed by the US and always forced to be under the NATO umbrella.
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    The US created for two purposes. Keep the Russians from invading western Europe. Keep Europeans from starting another world war. First world war millions of soldiers were sent to the slaughter. Second world war tens of millions were murdered in addition to millions of soldiers being slaughtered. With nukes in play a repeat just wasn't acceptable. You dislike that but we were successful. The US did try to bring China and Russia into the fold but that was a failure and has been abandoned.
    - kkzz99 3y ago
      The first general secretary of NATO put it best on what NATO always was meant to be: "To keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down". If you actually look at what happened in the years to come after that quote, it perfectly fits into that narrative. The assertion that "the US did try to bring China and Russia into the fold" is also quite acutely wrong. Remember when Yeltsin tried to join NATO after the end of the cold war, or how even Putin tried to integrate into NATO and the Western system? Who was it, that was vehemently opposed to that? Even more so is the possible Eurasian integration which US grand strategy has always seen as one of the worst case scenarios for US hegemony. You could call that a failure but you should assess on why it is one. The US China strategy was also always very obvious, open up their huge population for capitalist globalization and keep the sleeping dragon in a perpetual state of democratic dysfunction and underdevelopment (just look at India). What the US didn't expect was the iron grip of the CPC on power and economy, fully rejecting US planned shock therapy. The moment China became a state that could even think about challenging US hegemony was the moment the US completely pivoted to an aggressive containment strategy.
      - crazydoggers 3y ago
        You make it sound like the US has a constant single minded strategy, but this flies in the face of how US foreign policy actually works. US foreign policy is typically reactionary. This was very apparent during Trumps tenure in which the foundations of NATO were being questioned. Even at this moment, during the current election cycle, we have a number of candidates who are talking about a more isolationist, laissez faire response to things, including the current conflicts. The US, being a country with democratically elected leader, has on many occasions through its history pivoted significantly in its foreign policy as certain parties and ideologies gain and lose traction. This is in clear and direct contrast to countries like Russia and China with governments run by small groups over many continuous decades directing specific foreign policy strategies. I make these arguments here to clarify how this account’s propaganda attempts to function, using emotional arguments and other logical fallacies to obfuscate facts. See other comments here, that this account is the type of account talked about in the CNN article.
      - 3y ago
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    > military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation Not true. In a military occupation, the occupier gets resources from the occupied net/net. Not the other way around. If not for the US, most of Europe would be speaking German or Russian. A divided Europe ruined the world with two world wars and global colonialism. Imagine what would happen if Nazi Germany had survived. The terrors of colonial Belgium would pale in comparison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Exploitation,_atrocities,_and_death_toll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Exploita...
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    Btw, just to clarify for you. China in Tibet is an example of military occupation and hegemonic vassalisation. 1. China profits from Tibet: YES 2. China selects Tibetan leaders: YES 3. China subjugates Tibet: YES None of that applies to US in Europe.
- hulitu 3y ago
  They won't bite the hand that feeds them.
dang 3y ago
Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, regardless of which country you have a problem with. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

kkzz99 3y ago

[flagged]

emchammer 3y ago
Are you talking about the rift between supporters of Israel and those of Palestine? What does that have to do with disinformation from China?
- crazydoggers 3y ago
  It doesn’t. This is one of the accounts talked about in the article. Read through the users previous comments. Young account, all comments primarily focus on anti US pro China sentiment.
  - kkzz99 3y ago
    The irony in your allegation is palpable. Anyone not following rabid anti-china lines MUST be a sockpuppet, bot, shill, or whatever, it can't possibly be a genuine opinion, which is exactly the stance of the article in question. As I said in another comment of mine where I was accused of the same: I generally don't comment, but I feel strongly about US-China relations, which makes me comment.
    - crazydoggers 3y ago
      The speed with which this response was made is telling. On a comment and thread many hours old. Your initial comment was at 1am Central Time. Within minutes of this comment, at 9am Central time you responded. These are clear indications of a monitored account. In many other of “your” comments it’s been pointed out that your statements are incorrect, and provably false. At that point it goes from opinion to misinformation, and propaganda. One cannot pretend that China is not a totalitarian system built, with clear and consistent human rights violations. Where those who oppose the party line disappear. Contrast that with the US, where a former president is in a very public and contentious court case, with open coverage. Totalitarian regimes such as China and Russia view democracy and freedom of speech as a weakness to be exploited. What they fail to realize is that truth wins out. You can only lie for so long before you run smack into the truth of matters. Until and if China ever embraces the UN declaration of human rights, including the ratification of the ICCPR, its intentions are clear. China specifically believes that maintaining the party stranglehold on the country trumps the notion of universal human rights. And please don’t reply trying to obfuscate the issues, throw other propaganda, or whatabout’isms around. The support of a government clearly in direct opposition to freedom of speech, human rights, and democratic institutions cannot be supported in any society that values freedom and democracy.

KwisatzHaderack 3y ago

> Another post claimed that former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is “riddled with scandals.” Not quite the example I would use as Chinese agents spreading “misinformation”.

crazydoggers 3y ago
I think the goal is to attempt to instill what they see as instability in our democracy. Throw around unfounded accusation and attempt to sow deepening discord along party lines. They see the January 6th attack on the capital along with the threats to hang Nancy Pelosi as successes along these lines. This type of tactic is a lot harder to recognize.

pauldenton 3y ago

Thanks CNN for informing us about the largest known online disinformation operation harassing Americans Next up, China and Saudi Arabia chairing the United Nations Human Rights Council informing us about how the rights of humans are being trampled

dang 3y ago
We've banned this account for using HN primarily for political battle. That's not allowed here, whatever your politics are*. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. * as a matter of fact, I don't even know what they are—we don't scan the comments for that