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Is faster growth good? I remember hearing that faster growth means fewer nutrients. Also some herbicides work on the principle of making the plant grow too fas

Is faster growth good? I remember hearing that faster growth means fewer nutrients. Also some herbicides work on the principle of making the plant grow too fast in order to kill it.

ChrisRR 3y ago
Depends on your goal I guess. Like a lot of farming, "good enough" can be the driver
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Tomatoes are a good example of where we select for surprising goals. Tomatoes sell best when they're very red so we breed them to be red at the expense of both flavour and nutrition. Cannabis as well, it's selected to smell strong, since people make their purchases based on sniff tests, at the expense of the quality of the high.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    except the demand for good tasting tomatoes would be sooo high I can't believe it's just Big Tomato screwing us. It's hardly a secret that garden grown or in season farmstand tomatoes are so much better than what we get in stores. I read about the "gene for better flavor also leaves green around the stem" a long long time ago, long enough that those tomatoes would be in supermarkets if it were that simple. Readily available so-called heirloom tomatoes explore all sorts of colors and gradients, and they sell well, and still they aren't that good. Gotta be more to this story.
    - mathgeek 3y ago
      I assume the answer is pretty simple: many people shop on a budget, and spending more on better tomatoes isn’t often included. Thus we end up with producers lowering cost instead of raising quality. The consumers who do spend more are already served by the existing markets.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      If I'm standing in the shop looking at different tomatoes I have no idea how any of them taste. The only information I have is their country of origin and their physical appearance. If I've never read about trends in tomato genetics, presumably like most people, I'm just going to figure that the juiciest tastiest ones are the big red ones.
    - el_oni 3y ago
      tomatoes tend to lose flavour and texture if refigerated. but refrigeration tends to extend shelf life. The other factor is that tomatoes that ripen on the vine tend to be tastier than tomatoes ripened off the vine. However fully ripe tomatoes tend to be squishier and don't travel as well. So they tend to be picked while firm and ripened using ethylene gas. These tend to be less tasty but easier to transport and store. It's tradeoffs. A farmers market will typically have tastier tomatoes, when they are in season, than a supermarket, because they are picked when ripe, transported a short distance and sold within days. but if you're eating tomatoes out of season then expect them to be picked while unripe, refrigerated and then ripened off the vine so they can even make it to the supermarket shelves
    - kuhewa 3y ago
      It isn't just selection for being red, but other market characteristics that are at the expense of taste. Suitably thick skin, shelf life, uniform size, bruise resistance, and for production disease resistance and yield per unit area in production setting. Then, they get picked green for an even longer shelf life, and gassed with ethylene to turn red before sale. That definitely is not good for flavour. But if you are in a temperate climate, people expect a consistent product through the year so that is what a supply chain that can deliver red oblong fruit steadily through the winter at a cheap price yields. Supermarkets probably also prefer dealing with suppliers that can provide a steady stream rather than periodic gluts at harvest time, so picking green and storing fruit probably allows them to be trickled onto market. A vine ripened tomato is soft and either needs to get to market and sold much quicker or there will be considerably more wastage. Heirlooms in stores are always a smaller section than the 2-3 varieties of uniform red ones (now there is the 'on the vine' gimmick where they sell clusters, which were still picked green), and generally 3-4x the price. They still probably get picked early and may be refrigerated in the supply chain so you aren't getting the same thing as you would growing it yourself. I would disagree that the demand for good tasting tomatoes is they would outcompete the crap red ones. Here, in season local 'field tomatoes' (which are picked a little early but not green so show up in the store reddish, slightly less uniform in shape) and in terms of everything but colour and presentation are superior, but are the same or cheaper in price, it's not like the bullshit tomatoes disappear in season.
  - vanderZwan 3y ago
    I can only speak for my experience in Europe, but as far as I know the biggest selection bias in tomatoes is breeding them to be resistant to bruises when transported. And that only appplies to the ones exported to countries where it's not easy to grow them. On top of that they're often picked before they are firm red (because they are more firm), with the knowledge that they will turn red over time after picking anyway. On the other hand, I'll never forget the one time a Dutch colleague went on a trip to Italy, and when I asked him afterward how it was all the talked about was one time he went to the market and bought and ate a fresh tomato there, with just a pinch of added salt, as if it was a religious experience. "You don't understand, it was like I ate a real tomato for the first time in my life! A real tomato, vanderZwan!"
    - stinos 3y ago
      Your colleague should search for some local markets selling such tomatoes; in summer obviously, otherwise they aren't available. Not claiming they are the exact same breed as the ones in Italy nor exactly as tasty, but the difference with the imported and/or hydroculture (or whatever it is these days) off-season ones is huge.
      - vanderZwan 3y ago
        I don't think he'll have much luck in Stockholm.
        stinos 3y ago
        Sorry I assumed you were in the Netherlands :) Stockholm might be something else indeed.
klysm 3y ago
I’d be fascinated to read more about that second part
- paragraft 3y ago
  This was the best I could find https://www.invasive.org/gist/products/handbook/20.triclopyr.pdf https://www.invasive.org/gist/products/handbook/20.triclopyr... (see Mode of Action)
- transcriptase 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_ac... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicamba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicamba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecoprop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecoprop These are the three most common in consumer broadleaf herbicide ingredients (usually combined) that actually work. They mimic a growth hormone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxin Between application time and death the plants really do just grow out of control in weird uncoordinated ways. You can see a treated dandelion here: https://turf.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Slide16.JPG https://turf.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Slide16.J... Another interesting broadleaf herbicide mechanism is overloading invasive plants with chelated iron. Broadleaf weeds absorb iron rapidly and without regulation until the point of toxicity, whereas grasses will only absorb what they need to turn a nice healthy dark shade of green.
  - zyxin 3y ago
    That image makes me appreciate just how slowly most plants grow and move. Imagining that bundle of dandelions writhing around triggers the same sort of visceral reaction as seeing maggots for me.
    - transcriptase 3y ago
      If it’s any consolation that picture was probably about a week after treatment, so still quite slow! The entire process takes about two weeks depending on the type of plant.
throwaway892238 3y ago
That's due to increased carbon dioxide uptake. Essentially you're feeding the plant too much carbon dioxide, so the end result is unbalanced production of starches/sugars. It does seem these electrical effects are well established, and seem to mostly have positive benefits: https://www.ehow.com/list_7531004_effects-electricity-plant-life.html https://www.ehow.com/list_7531004_effects-electricity-plant-...
kuhewa 3y ago
in general growth is a coordinated process and pulling on one single lever hard is not going to be good. But there are times when encouraging growth is desirable, like using plant growth hormone (synthetic auxin) to encourage a cutting to produce roots or a plant to grow a new branch in one location.

Is faster growth good? I remember hearing that faster growth means fewer nutrients. Also some herbicides work on the principle of making the plant grow too fast in order to kill it.

ChrisRR 3y ago

Depends on your goal I guess. Like a lot of farming, "good enough" can be the driver

AlecSchueler 3y ago
Tomatoes are a good example of where we select for surprising goals. Tomatoes sell best when they're very red so we breed them to be red at the expense of both flavour and nutrition. Cannabis as well, it's selected to smell strong, since people make their purchases based on sniff tests, at the expense of the quality of the high.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  except the demand for good tasting tomatoes would be sooo high I can't believe it's just Big Tomato screwing us. It's hardly a secret that garden grown or in season farmstand tomatoes are so much better than what we get in stores. I read about the "gene for better flavor also leaves green around the stem" a long long time ago, long enough that those tomatoes would be in supermarkets if it were that simple. Readily available so-called heirloom tomatoes explore all sorts of colors and gradients, and they sell well, and still they aren't that good. Gotta be more to this story.
  - mathgeek 3y ago
    I assume the answer is pretty simple: many people shop on a budget, and spending more on better tomatoes isn’t often included. Thus we end up with producers lowering cost instead of raising quality. The consumers who do spend more are already served by the existing markets.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    If I'm standing in the shop looking at different tomatoes I have no idea how any of them taste. The only information I have is their country of origin and their physical appearance. If I've never read about trends in tomato genetics, presumably like most people, I'm just going to figure that the juiciest tastiest ones are the big red ones.
  - el_oni 3y ago
    tomatoes tend to lose flavour and texture if refigerated. but refrigeration tends to extend shelf life. The other factor is that tomatoes that ripen on the vine tend to be tastier than tomatoes ripened off the vine. However fully ripe tomatoes tend to be squishier and don't travel as well. So they tend to be picked while firm and ripened using ethylene gas. These tend to be less tasty but easier to transport and store. It's tradeoffs. A farmers market will typically have tastier tomatoes, when they are in season, than a supermarket, because they are picked when ripe, transported a short distance and sold within days. but if you're eating tomatoes out of season then expect them to be picked while unripe, refrigerated and then ripened off the vine so they can even make it to the supermarket shelves
  - kuhewa 3y ago
    It isn't just selection for being red, but other market characteristics that are at the expense of taste. Suitably thick skin, shelf life, uniform size, bruise resistance, and for production disease resistance and yield per unit area in production setting. Then, they get picked green for an even longer shelf life, and gassed with ethylene to turn red before sale. That definitely is not good for flavour. But if you are in a temperate climate, people expect a consistent product through the year so that is what a supply chain that can deliver red oblong fruit steadily through the winter at a cheap price yields. Supermarkets probably also prefer dealing with suppliers that can provide a steady stream rather than periodic gluts at harvest time, so picking green and storing fruit probably allows them to be trickled onto market. A vine ripened tomato is soft and either needs to get to market and sold much quicker or there will be considerably more wastage. Heirlooms in stores are always a smaller section than the 2-3 varieties of uniform red ones (now there is the 'on the vine' gimmick where they sell clusters, which were still picked green), and generally 3-4x the price. They still probably get picked early and may be refrigerated in the supply chain so you aren't getting the same thing as you would growing it yourself. I would disagree that the demand for good tasting tomatoes is they would outcompete the crap red ones. Here, in season local 'field tomatoes' (which are picked a little early but not green so show up in the store reddish, slightly less uniform in shape) and in terms of everything but colour and presentation are superior, but are the same or cheaper in price, it's not like the bullshit tomatoes disappear in season.
- vanderZwan 3y ago
  I can only speak for my experience in Europe, but as far as I know the biggest selection bias in tomatoes is breeding them to be resistant to bruises when transported. And that only appplies to the ones exported to countries where it's not easy to grow them. On top of that they're often picked before they are firm red (because they are more firm), with the knowledge that they will turn red over time after picking anyway. On the other hand, I'll never forget the one time a Dutch colleague went on a trip to Italy, and when I asked him afterward how it was all the talked about was one time he went to the market and bought and ate a fresh tomato there, with just a pinch of added salt, as if it was a religious experience. "You don't understand, it was like I ate a real tomato for the first time in my life! A real tomato, vanderZwan!"
  - stinos 3y ago
    Your colleague should search for some local markets selling such tomatoes; in summer obviously, otherwise they aren't available. Not claiming they are the exact same breed as the ones in Italy nor exactly as tasty, but the difference with the imported and/or hydroculture (or whatever it is these days) off-season ones is huge.
    - vanderZwan 3y ago
      I don't think he'll have much luck in Stockholm.
      - stinos 3y ago
        Sorry I assumed you were in the Netherlands :) Stockholm might be something else indeed.

klysm 3y ago

I’d be fascinated to read more about that second part

paragraft 3y ago
This was the best I could find https://www.invasive.org/gist/products/handbook/20.triclopyr.pdf https://www.invasive.org/gist/products/handbook/20.triclopyr... (see Mode of Action)
transcriptase 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_ac... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicamba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicamba https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecoprop https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecoprop These are the three most common in consumer broadleaf herbicide ingredients (usually combined) that actually work. They mimic a growth hormone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxin https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxin Between application time and death the plants really do just grow out of control in weird uncoordinated ways. You can see a treated dandelion here: https://turf.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Slide16.JPG https://turf.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Slide16.J... Another interesting broadleaf herbicide mechanism is overloading invasive plants with chelated iron. Broadleaf weeds absorb iron rapidly and without regulation until the point of toxicity, whereas grasses will only absorb what they need to turn a nice healthy dark shade of green.
- zyxin 3y ago
  That image makes me appreciate just how slowly most plants grow and move. Imagining that bundle of dandelions writhing around triggers the same sort of visceral reaction as seeing maggots for me.
  - transcriptase 3y ago
    If it’s any consolation that picture was probably about a week after treatment, so still quite slow! The entire process takes about two weeks depending on the type of plant.

throwaway892238 3y ago

That's due to increased carbon dioxide uptake. Essentially you're feeding the plant too much carbon dioxide, so the end result is unbalanced production of starches/sugars. It does seem these electrical effects are well established, and seem to mostly have positive benefits: https://www.ehow.com/list_7531004_effects-electricity-plant-life.html https://www.ehow.com/list_7531004_effects-electricity-plant-...

kuhewa 3y ago

in general growth is a coordinated process and pulling on one single lever hard is not going to be good. But there are times when encouraging growth is desirable, like using plant growth hormone (synthetic auxin) to encourage a cutting to produce roots or a plant to grow a new branch in one location.