4 ms·

It attempts to manage obfuscation with more obfuscation. People are results and cost oriented, and I'm sorry to tell the climatologists that psychology is not

It attempts to manage obfuscation with more obfuscation. People are results and cost oriented, and I'm sorry to tell the climatologists that psychology is not going to change just because they think they have a good scary story to tell. It does not matter how you twist the story up, what relations you use, or what scale of numbers you decide to use. Until people see a material change, they're not going to make massive changes themselves.

hh3k0 3y ago
> Until people see a material change, they're not going to make massive changes themselves. The beauty of climate change is that it’ll be too late by then. A perfect civilisation killer, designing a better one would be a tall order.
- lisper 3y ago
  I'm not sure "beauty" is the word I would have chosen. But it's really important to emphasize this: by the time things get bad enough to really notice, it will be far too late to stop them from getting much, much worse. Once the permafrost starts to melt and release it's methane, it's game over (and that process has already begun).
  - peteradio 3y ago
    > Once the permafrost starts to melt and release it's methane, it's game over (and that process has already begun). Sources?
    - lisper 3y ago
      https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/permafrost https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/permafrost https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2785/unexpected-future-boost-of-methane-possible-from-arctic-permafrost/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2785/unexpected-future-boost-o... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/driven-by-climate-change-thawing-permafrost-is-radically-changing-the-arctic-landscape https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/driven-by-climate-chang... "Under the surface, something else is active – and it is amplifying global warming. When the ground thaws, microbes begin feasting on organic matter in soils that have been frozen for millennia. These microbes release carbon dioxide and methane, potent greenhouse gases. As those gases escape into the atmosphere, they further warm the climate, creating a feedback loop: Warmer temperatures thaw more soil, releasing more organic material for microbes to feast on and produce more greenhouse gases."
      - peteradio 3y ago
        I'm not see game over.
        lisper 3y ago
        Seriously? Do I really need to explain positive feedback to you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback
        soco 3y ago
        This reminds me of the usual argument with the deniers: they ask you for proof, for scientific proof, for better scientific proof, refuse them all, and when you are fed up and ask them in turn for their proof, they come up with a youtube video of some sarcastic guy.
        lisper 3y ago
        Yes. Young earth creationists employ the same tactics.
      - akira2501 3y ago
        > carbon dioxide and methane, potent greenhouse gases They're actually the least potent. They have GWPs of 1 and 20, respectively. Meanwhile Nitrous Oxide has 300 and CFCs have above 5000. > they further warm the climate, creating a feedback loop Possibly creating a feedback loop according to limited computer models focusing strictly on local conditions and explicitly ignoring global ones.
        lisper 3y ago
        > They're actually the least potent. Doesn't much matter when we are releasing them by the gigaton. > Possibly creating a feedback loop according to limited computer models focusing strictly on local conditions and explicitly ignoring global ones. You don't need computer models to see that warming -> melting permafrost -> more methane -> more warming -> more melting permafrost -> more methane...
huijzer 3y ago
I do see many young people making severe changes compared to their parents, usually with reasoning along the lines of "we don’t know what is gonna happen with increased CO2 (etc) levels, but so far the earth has been pretty comfy for humans so I’d rather not find out." As a side note, the CEO of Macy’s (Jeff Genette) said in one interview that his daughter refuses to buy new pants. Only second hand. That’s not the lifestyle I would imagine when thinking about the daughter of the CEO of a store worth multiple billions headquartered in New York.

hh3k0 3y ago

> Until people see a material change, they're not going to make massive changes themselves. The beauty of climate change is that it’ll be too late by then. A perfect civilisation killer, designing a better one would be a tall order.

lisper 3y ago
I'm not sure "beauty" is the word I would have chosen. But it's really important to emphasize this: by the time things get bad enough to really notice, it will be far too late to stop them from getting much, much worse. Once the permafrost starts to melt and release it's methane, it's game over (and that process has already begun).
- peteradio 3y ago
  > Once the permafrost starts to melt and release it's methane, it's game over (and that process has already begun). Sources?
  - lisper 3y ago
    https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/permafrost https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/permafrost https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2785/unexpected-future-boost-of-methane-possible-from-arctic-permafrost/ https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2785/unexpected-future-boost-o... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/driven-by-climate-change-thawing-permafrost-is-radically-changing-the-arctic-landscape https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/driven-by-climate-chang... "Under the surface, something else is active – and it is amplifying global warming. When the ground thaws, microbes begin feasting on organic matter in soils that have been frozen for millennia. These microbes release carbon dioxide and methane, potent greenhouse gases. As those gases escape into the atmosphere, they further warm the climate, creating a feedback loop: Warmer temperatures thaw more soil, releasing more organic material for microbes to feast on and produce more greenhouse gases."
    - peteradio 3y ago
      I'm not see game over.
      - lisper 3y ago
        Seriously? Do I really need to explain positive feedback to you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback
        soco 3y ago
        This reminds me of the usual argument with the deniers: they ask you for proof, for scientific proof, for better scientific proof, refuse them all, and when you are fed up and ask them in turn for their proof, they come up with a youtube video of some sarcastic guy.
        lisper 3y ago
        Yes. Young earth creationists employ the same tactics.
    - akira2501 3y ago
      > carbon dioxide and methane, potent greenhouse gases They're actually the least potent. They have GWPs of 1 and 20, respectively. Meanwhile Nitrous Oxide has 300 and CFCs have above 5000. > they further warm the climate, creating a feedback loop Possibly creating a feedback loop according to limited computer models focusing strictly on local conditions and explicitly ignoring global ones.
      - lisper 3y ago
        > They're actually the least potent. Doesn't much matter when we are releasing them by the gigaton. > Possibly creating a feedback loop according to limited computer models focusing strictly on local conditions and explicitly ignoring global ones. You don't need computer models to see that warming -> melting permafrost -> more methane -> more warming -> more melting permafrost -> more methane...

huijzer 3y ago

I do see many young people making severe changes compared to their parents, usually with reasoning along the lines of "we don’t know what is gonna happen with increased CO2 (etc) levels, but so far the earth has been pretty comfy for humans so I’d rather not find out." As a side note, the CEO of Macy’s (Jeff Genette) said in one interview that his daughter refuses to buy new pants. Only second hand. That’s not the lifestyle I would imagine when thinking about the daughter of the CEO of a store worth multiple billions headquartered in New York.