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Isn't it the other way round? Aren't the lower socio-economic classes signaling their lower status by doing weird things? Say listening to shitty music while w

Isn't it the other way round? Aren't the lower socio-economic classes signaling their lower status by doing weird things? Say listening to shitty music while wearing big gold chains (real or not), Luis Vuitton cap and Luis Vuitton man purses thinking it's somehow "cool" or that it somehow "shows wealth" for example is a behavior that screams: "I'm from a low socio-economic class". Or going to this or that country to support one's favorite soccer team, while wearing players' outfits, and singing gross songs while drunk. That also gives it away. I also don't see many of my doctors full of tatoos (sister-in-law is a great tatoo artist btw) as if they were mexican hitmen, with piercing in the nose and ears. I saw zero doctors like that in my entire life. Same for judges, lawyers, ambassadors, etc. And nobody forces people to cover themselves in tatoos and piercing. Yet some people decide to give it away by being like that. I mean: just as there may be shifting modes of elite distinction over the centuries, there may very well be shifting modes of low class distinction over the centuries too.

tcgv 3y ago
While I agree with the main point of your argument, and it seems intuitive to me since population strata have historically shown to develop distinctive cultural identities: > there may very well be shifting modes of low class distinction over the centuries too. I believe your perspective is biased and even discriminatory because it generalizes rap or hip hop (I assume) music as inferior, associates soccer enthusiasts with drunkness, and links tattoos with crime.
- tristor 3y ago
  Their perspective is biased, but not necessarily discriminatory unless they are taking actions on the basis of that bias. Also, bias is not necessarily a net-negative, bias and stereotypes form via collective observation. Soccer hooliganism isn’t just a bias, it’s a real thing that actually happens and has resulted in bystanders being harmed. That bias can protect you by helping you avoid negative situations. I am very annoyed at our current zeitgeist where we all behave as if bias, discrimination, and stereotyping are inherently bad things. No, they’re the result of human biology optimizing for pattern matching and recognizing those patterns.
  - tcgv 3y ago
    If I put myself in the shoes of someone who listens to and enjoys rap/hip-hop music, is a soccer enthusiast, or has tattoos, I would take the original comment as offensive. The main point could have been made without disparaging remarks. > we all behave as if bias, discrimination, and stereotyping are inherently bad things. No, they’re the result of human biology optimizing for pattern matching and recognizing those patterns. From an evolutionary perspective, I agree. In ancient times, this trait must have been really important for survival. But in our modern society, we are past that point, and the way we communicate and perpetuate stereotypes can have detrimental effects on interactions between different groups within our society, so even if it's still useful in some contexts, we should take it with caution.
    - Shamu 3y ago
      > In ancient times, this trait must have been really important for survival. But in our modern society, we are past that point Citation needed.
      - tcgv 3y ago
        From "Evolutionary Approaches to Stereotyping and Prejudice" [1]: > "An evolutionary approach thus (a) seriously considers the possibility that prejudices, stereotyping, stereotypes, and discrimination are in some aspects evolved adaptations, like the inclination to avoid dangerous animals." > "For instance, individuals inclined to avoid predatory beasts were more likely than those without this inclination to survive such encounters, thereby increasing the likelihood they would successfully reproduce. To the extent that this avoidance inclination had a genetic component, and that the benefits of avoiding such animals existed for a long enough period of time, modern humans would come to be characterized by this avoidance adaptation and the cognitive and emotional inclinations causally linked to it." The "we are past that point" remark refers to the fact that in our modern society we are no longer subject to "dangerous animals" or "predatory beasts" in our daily lives, in the literal sense. [1] https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/faculty.sites.uci.edu/dist/1/850/files/2019/08/Sng-Williams-Neuberg-2016-Handbook-Chapter.pdf https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/faculty.sites.uci.edu/dist/1/8...

tcgv 3y ago

While I agree with the main point of your argument, and it seems intuitive to me since population strata have historically shown to develop distinctive cultural identities: > there may very well be shifting modes of low class distinction over the centuries too. I believe your perspective is biased and even discriminatory because it generalizes rap or hip hop (I assume) music as inferior, associates soccer enthusiasts with drunkness, and links tattoos with crime.

tristor 3y ago
Their perspective is biased, but not necessarily discriminatory unless they are taking actions on the basis of that bias. Also, bias is not necessarily a net-negative, bias and stereotypes form via collective observation. Soccer hooliganism isn’t just a bias, it’s a real thing that actually happens and has resulted in bystanders being harmed. That bias can protect you by helping you avoid negative situations. I am very annoyed at our current zeitgeist where we all behave as if bias, discrimination, and stereotyping are inherently bad things. No, they’re the result of human biology optimizing for pattern matching and recognizing those patterns.
- tcgv 3y ago
  If I put myself in the shoes of someone who listens to and enjoys rap/hip-hop music, is a soccer enthusiast, or has tattoos, I would take the original comment as offensive. The main point could have been made without disparaging remarks. > we all behave as if bias, discrimination, and stereotyping are inherently bad things. No, they’re the result of human biology optimizing for pattern matching and recognizing those patterns. From an evolutionary perspective, I agree. In ancient times, this trait must have been really important for survival. But in our modern society, we are past that point, and the way we communicate and perpetuate stereotypes can have detrimental effects on interactions between different groups within our society, so even if it's still useful in some contexts, we should take it with caution.
  - Shamu 3y ago
    > In ancient times, this trait must have been really important for survival. But in our modern society, we are past that point Citation needed.
    - tcgv 3y ago
      From "Evolutionary Approaches to Stereotyping and Prejudice" [1]: > "An evolutionary approach thus (a) seriously considers the possibility that prejudices, stereotyping, stereotypes, and discrimination are in some aspects evolved adaptations, like the inclination to avoid dangerous animals." > "For instance, individuals inclined to avoid predatory beasts were more likely than those without this inclination to survive such encounters, thereby increasing the likelihood they would successfully reproduce. To the extent that this avoidance inclination had a genetic component, and that the benefits of avoiding such animals existed for a long enough period of time, modern humans would come to be characterized by this avoidance adaptation and the cognitive and emotional inclinations causally linked to it." The "we are past that point" remark refers to the fact that in our modern society we are no longer subject to "dangerous animals" or "predatory beasts" in our daily lives, in the literal sense. [1] https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/faculty.sites.uci.edu/dist/1/850/files/2019/08/Sng-Williams-Neuberg-2016-Handbook-Chapter.pdf https://bpb-us-e2.wpmucdn.com/faculty.sites.uci.edu/dist/1/8...