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Can someone help me understand how big of a deal this is? Is this a global ban on using HEVC to stream UHD? What does Netflix use to stream 1080p? Assuming N

by nstart 3y ago

Can someone help me understand how big of a deal this is? Is this a global ban on using HEVC to stream UHD? What does Netflix use to stream 1080p? Assuming Netflix turned HEVC off tomorrow how would UHD streams happen on a random smart tv from almost a decade ago? Feeling very confused because I wasn’t even aware that this was something on the horizon and video codecs isn’t a topic I know anything meaningful about honestly.

ksec 3y ago
>Is this a global ban on using HEVC to stream UHD? Since this is in German Court I would assume it is for Germany only. >What does Netflix use to stream 1080p? Resolution has little to do with Codec. So you could have 1080P in both HEVC / H.265 and AVC / H.264. I believe Netflix provides both encoding in case one isn't supported. Although 4K may straightly be HEVC only. Not because AVC; the codec dont support 4K but more of a limitation of hardware decoder and encoding inefficiency. >Assuming Netflix turned HEVC off tomorrow how would UHD streams happen on a random smart tv from almost a decade ago? They may only be watching HD instead. Or Higher Quality of HD encoding with higher bitrate. Which is perfectly doable for Netflix due to their comparatively low amount of content. Certainly impossible for something like Youtube where you have a constant influx of new uploads.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Since this is in German Court I would assume it is for Germany only. The article is lacking details on which Munich court made the decision... if it is the Federal Patent Court [1] or the European Unified Patent Court [2], it may very well be binding europe-wide. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundespatentgericht_(Deutschland) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundespatentgericht_(Deutschla... [2] https://www.unified-patent-court.org/de/gericht/standorte https://www.unified-patent-court.org/de/gericht/standorte
Tmpod 3y ago
I'm not quite sure either, but AV1 seems to be the free format alternative to HEVC. However, it lacks the level of hardware support the latter has achieved, which is very much relevant for TVs and such, seeing as software decoding (of both HEVC and AV1) is expensive and may not be good enough in a lot of consumer devices out there.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  AV1 was built with extraordinary care to make sure it didn't use any patents, to try to build a free & clear open technology for sharing video. But none the less, vipers will spring up from the sand to strike at humanity's ankles. Avanci has declared a new patent pool over some parts of av1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38246756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38246756
  - mort96 3y ago
    What do we actually do in light of this ... ? Do we just have to keep using H.264 for 20 more years until the initial round of H.265 patents are expired? I'm genuinely wondering. I can't imagine living in a world where we're just starting to move on from H.264 in 2043. But I also can't imagine another royalty-free video codec project succeeding if AV1 is found to be covered by patents outside of the AOM. It genuinely seems like our only shot.
    - Narishma 3y ago
      On the plus side, it would mean less devices being made obsolete.
    - fuzzfactor 3y ago
      Looks like a good number of the H.265 patents will be expiring in about 10 years now, so maybe 2033 would be good. A major defect is really in the policies that allow standardization to include encumbered technologies. Otherwise consensus standards among established leaders which do not require the removal of encumbrances before standardization, will give rise to what we have now as "patent pools" where only well-established organizations can deploy the standard after is is approved.
      - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
        Problem: it's up to many dozens of court systems to decide what encumbers what. It's not a defect of the standardization effort: it's the everyday worldwide pandemonium of corporate goliaths given endless opportunities to court shop. Patents are broken inside jurisdictions, but across jurisdictions this is an uncoordinated mess that can never be won.

by nstart 3y ago

ksec 3y ago

>Is this a global ban on using HEVC to stream UHD? Since this is in German Court I would assume it is for Germany only. >What does Netflix use to stream 1080p? Resolution has little to do with Codec. So you could have 1080P in both HEVC / H.265 and AVC / H.264. I believe Netflix provides both encoding in case one isn't supported. Although 4K may straightly be HEVC only. Not because AVC; the codec dont support 4K but more of a limitation of hardware decoder and encoding inefficiency. >Assuming Netflix turned HEVC off tomorrow how would UHD streams happen on a random smart tv from almost a decade ago? They may only be watching HD instead. Or Higher Quality of HD encoding with higher bitrate. Which is perfectly doable for Netflix due to their comparatively low amount of content. Certainly impossible for something like Youtube where you have a constant influx of new uploads.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Since this is in German Court I would assume it is for Germany only. The article is lacking details on which Munich court made the decision... if it is the Federal Patent Court [1] or the European Unified Patent Court [2], it may very well be binding europe-wide. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundespatentgericht_(Deutschland) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundespatentgericht_(Deutschla... [2] https://www.unified-patent-court.org/de/gericht/standorte https://www.unified-patent-court.org/de/gericht/standorte

Tmpod 3y ago

I'm not quite sure either, but AV1 seems to be the free format alternative to HEVC. However, it lacks the level of hardware support the latter has achieved, which is very much relevant for TVs and such, seeing as software decoding (of both HEVC and AV1) is expensive and may not be good enough in a lot of consumer devices out there.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
AV1 was built with extraordinary care to make sure it didn't use any patents, to try to build a free & clear open technology for sharing video. But none the less, vipers will spring up from the sand to strike at humanity's ankles. Avanci has declared a new patent pool over some parts of av1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38246756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38246756
- mort96 3y ago
  What do we actually do in light of this ... ? Do we just have to keep using H.264 for 20 more years until the initial round of H.265 patents are expired? I'm genuinely wondering. I can't imagine living in a world where we're just starting to move on from H.264 in 2043. But I also can't imagine another royalty-free video codec project succeeding if AV1 is found to be covered by patents outside of the AOM. It genuinely seems like our only shot.
  - Narishma 3y ago
    On the plus side, it would mean less devices being made obsolete.
  - fuzzfactor 3y ago
    Looks like a good number of the H.265 patents will be expiring in about 10 years now, so maybe 2033 would be good. A major defect is really in the policies that allow standardization to include encumbered technologies. Otherwise consensus standards among established leaders which do not require the removal of encumbrances before standardization, will give rise to what we have now as "patent pools" where only well-established organizations can deploy the standard after is is approved.
    - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
      Problem: it's up to many dozens of court systems to decide what encumbers what. It's not a defect of the standardization effort: it's the everyday worldwide pandemonium of corporate goliaths given endless opportunities to court shop. Patents are broken inside jurisdictions, but across jurisdictions this is an uncoordinated mess that can never be won.