4 ms·

Eh, I’m fervently anti-diamond (they’re silly imo), but I can acknowledge that, to some, they represent (I think?) a lasting commitment and are a cultural tradi

Eh, I’m fervently anti-diamond (they’re silly imo), but I can acknowledge that, to some, they represent (I think?) a lasting commitment and are a cultural tradition. If the desire is emotional, then there’s no reasoning with it anyway. (And not everything in life need be logical.)

callalex 3y ago
Does it count as a cultural tradition if it was manufactured within the last 2 generations? It’s kinda like asking a family if they celebrate Toyotathon or Hondadays as a tradition.
- yayitswei 3y ago
  KFC Christmas dinner in Japan is a fun one. To be fair, all of our major holidays have been co-opted by corporations and they are still warmly celebrated. Going back to wedding rings, giving your new partner something of value is a very old tradition indeed (though what's perceived as valuable has changed greatly).
  - Retric 3y ago
    Giving a partner something of actual value is one thing, but diamonds aren’t worth what you’re paying. That purchase needs to support an entire industry and massive marketing campaign around maintaining an artificial tradition.
    - benj111 3y ago
      Define value. You might not value it, but I dare say you value things that I don't value. Define artificial tradition. Yes someone can invent it, but it requires people to actually adopt it. All the trappings of Christmas were invented by someone. They aren't 'artificial' though
      - Retric 3y ago
        Value is defined in free markets by what you can sell something for. Artificial tradition as in created by a marketing campaign to sell a product. Same things as eating “KFC on Christmas” in Japan or more recently “Happy Honda Days” just slightly older and more widespread.
        benj111 3y ago
        >but diamonds aren’t worth what you’re paying >Value is defined in free markets by what you can sell something for So if someone can sell you a diamond for X, it is worth X. So the diamond is worth what you're paying. Was Christmas created to sell Christianity? I just don't get the distinction. A 'natural' tradition isn't somehow more wholesome, we've just forgotten who invented it. And the meaning still derives from the people partaking in that tradition.
        Retric 3y ago
        > So if someone can sell you a diamond for X, it is worth X. Note quite, when most people buy land the seller doesn’t receive the full amount you pay realtors get their cut of the transaction. Same deal with used cars etc, the transaction costs are removed from the sales price when calculating value. Commercial Diamonds are just an unusually extreme case. > I just don't get the distinction. A 'natural' tradition isn't somehow more wholesome, we've just forgotten who invented it. And the meaning still derives from the people partaking in that tradition. The meaning of diamonds still derives from advertising which is the haven’t stopped because people stop caring when they do. This clearly demonstrates the artificial nature of what’s happening. Nobody needs to advertise saying excuse me if you bump into someone in a crowd, that has been maintained culturally for a long time without outside influence. Saying someone created it therefore it’s all the same is a meaningless statement. People create different things, saying someone created something doesn’t imply what that thing is.
        benj111 3y ago
        >Note quite, when most people buy land the seller doesn’t receive the full amount you pay realtors get their cut of the transaction. Same deal with used cars etc. In my country house selling generally uses an agency model, I (optionally) employ someone to market my house. I get the full value, and then pay them a fee. A second hand car seller sells the car, they make money by adding value. If I choose to buy a car I can go direct to a seller but they may not have want I want, may not be available at convenient times, and I'll have less come back if things go wrong. >Saying someone created it therefore it’s all the same is a meaningless statement. People create different things, saying someone created something doesn’t imply what that thing is. You're implying who created that thing is more important than what the thing is. So can we agree that it's the thing that's important, not who made it.
- oblio 3y ago
  Yes, it counts. If you look at most modern traditions, 90% of them are less than 100-150 years old. Christmas today looks nothing like Christmas in 1900, across the world. Most of the foods today (and I'm not talking about fast food) were invented in the same period. At least their modern incarnations, sometimes they have really old names but the old versions had very little in common with the current food.
  - Retric 3y ago
    I disagree, Tinsel is at the edge of that 150 year window only going back to 1890’s, but Christmas hasn’t changed that much from 200 years ago. If you look at old pictures Christmas trees taken in 1900 it looks basically the same as one today except for the LED lighting showing how slowly things evolved. Documentation isn’t that great, but back in the 1450’s people decorated fir trees with apples alongside other ornaments which is the origin of modern round ornaments. By the 1530 there where rules limiting people to one tree in their homes. Massachusetts outlawed Christmas celebrations back in 1659 outside of Church attendance. The tradition had spread well outside of Germany even back in 1841 Winser Castle had a Christmas Tree.
    - oblio 3y ago
      You're talking about Central and Northern Europe (+ their colonies). Christmas in Eastern Europe and most other places looked nothing like that. Heck, Seychelles and Hawaii decorate their local trees like they're fir trees in Scandinavia.
      - Retric 3y ago
        Yes the tradition spread, but people don’t live in the same place our ancestors did 600 years ago either. Traditions diffuse across generations, cultures, and geographic borders that doesn’t somehow make them new or fake.
        oblio 3y ago
        I don't recall where I read it, but: > Yes the tradition spread, but people don’t live in the same place our ancestors did 600 years ago either. Yes, they do :-) The vast majority of people, especially in underdeveloped or developing countries, DO live in the general area where their ancestors moved during the last migration, which for some was thousands of years ago. People really don't move away unless it's easy or they're forced to. And my comment also included stuff like food. Most current food is modern.
pierat 3y ago
I like diamonds. They are pretty. But we also look at the ethics of most diamonds. And aside custom lab grown, child exploitation and murder are the norm. I ethically refuse to pay any money into that system of child exploitation, child murder, and mass violence.

callalex 3y ago

Does it count as a cultural tradition if it was manufactured within the last 2 generations? It’s kinda like asking a family if they celebrate Toyotathon or Hondadays as a tradition.

yayitswei 3y ago
KFC Christmas dinner in Japan is a fun one. To be fair, all of our major holidays have been co-opted by corporations and they are still warmly celebrated. Going back to wedding rings, giving your new partner something of value is a very old tradition indeed (though what's perceived as valuable has changed greatly).
- Retric 3y ago
  Giving a partner something of actual value is one thing, but diamonds aren’t worth what you’re paying. That purchase needs to support an entire industry and massive marketing campaign around maintaining an artificial tradition.
  - benj111 3y ago
    Define value. You might not value it, but I dare say you value things that I don't value. Define artificial tradition. Yes someone can invent it, but it requires people to actually adopt it. All the trappings of Christmas were invented by someone. They aren't 'artificial' though
    - Retric 3y ago
      Value is defined in free markets by what you can sell something for. Artificial tradition as in created by a marketing campaign to sell a product. Same things as eating “KFC on Christmas” in Japan or more recently “Happy Honda Days” just slightly older and more widespread.
      - benj111 3y ago
        >but diamonds aren’t worth what you’re paying >Value is defined in free markets by what you can sell something for So if someone can sell you a diamond for X, it is worth X. So the diamond is worth what you're paying. Was Christmas created to sell Christianity? I just don't get the distinction. A 'natural' tradition isn't somehow more wholesome, we've just forgotten who invented it. And the meaning still derives from the people partaking in that tradition.
        Retric 3y ago
        > So if someone can sell you a diamond for X, it is worth X. Note quite, when most people buy land the seller doesn’t receive the full amount you pay realtors get their cut of the transaction. Same deal with used cars etc, the transaction costs are removed from the sales price when calculating value. Commercial Diamonds are just an unusually extreme case. > I just don't get the distinction. A 'natural' tradition isn't somehow more wholesome, we've just forgotten who invented it. And the meaning still derives from the people partaking in that tradition. The meaning of diamonds still derives from advertising which is the haven’t stopped because people stop caring when they do. This clearly demonstrates the artificial nature of what’s happening. Nobody needs to advertise saying excuse me if you bump into someone in a crowd, that has been maintained culturally for a long time without outside influence. Saying someone created it therefore it’s all the same is a meaningless statement. People create different things, saying someone created something doesn’t imply what that thing is.
        benj111 3y ago
        >Note quite, when most people buy land the seller doesn’t receive the full amount you pay realtors get their cut of the transaction. Same deal with used cars etc. In my country house selling generally uses an agency model, I (optionally) employ someone to market my house. I get the full value, and then pay them a fee. A second hand car seller sells the car, they make money by adding value. If I choose to buy a car I can go direct to a seller but they may not have want I want, may not be available at convenient times, and I'll have less come back if things go wrong. >Saying someone created it therefore it’s all the same is a meaningless statement. People create different things, saying someone created something doesn’t imply what that thing is. You're implying who created that thing is more important than what the thing is. So can we agree that it's the thing that's important, not who made it.
oblio 3y ago
Yes, it counts. If you look at most modern traditions, 90% of them are less than 100-150 years old. Christmas today looks nothing like Christmas in 1900, across the world. Most of the foods today (and I'm not talking about fast food) were invented in the same period. At least their modern incarnations, sometimes they have really old names but the old versions had very little in common with the current food.
- Retric 3y ago
  I disagree, Tinsel is at the edge of that 150 year window only going back to 1890’s, but Christmas hasn’t changed that much from 200 years ago. If you look at old pictures Christmas trees taken in 1900 it looks basically the same as one today except for the LED lighting showing how slowly things evolved. Documentation isn’t that great, but back in the 1450’s people decorated fir trees with apples alongside other ornaments which is the origin of modern round ornaments. By the 1530 there where rules limiting people to one tree in their homes. Massachusetts outlawed Christmas celebrations back in 1659 outside of Church attendance. The tradition had spread well outside of Germany even back in 1841 Winser Castle had a Christmas Tree.
  - oblio 3y ago
    You're talking about Central and Northern Europe (+ their colonies). Christmas in Eastern Europe and most other places looked nothing like that. Heck, Seychelles and Hawaii decorate their local trees like they're fir trees in Scandinavia.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Yes the tradition spread, but people don’t live in the same place our ancestors did 600 years ago either. Traditions diffuse across generations, cultures, and geographic borders that doesn’t somehow make them new or fake.
      - oblio 3y ago
        I don't recall where I read it, but: > Yes the tradition spread, but people don’t live in the same place our ancestors did 600 years ago either. Yes, they do :-) The vast majority of people, especially in underdeveloped or developing countries, DO live in the general area where their ancestors moved during the last migration, which for some was thousands of years ago. People really don't move away unless it's easy or they're forced to. And my comment also included stuff like food. Most current food is modern.

pierat 3y ago

I like diamonds. They are pretty. But we also look at the ethics of most diamonds. And aside custom lab grown, child exploitation and murder are the norm. I ethically refuse to pay any money into that system of child exploitation, child murder, and mass violence.