11 ms·

Porsche Open Source Platform

169 points by rettichschnidi 3y ago

thenbe 3y ago
Meanwhile, Mazda is sending cease and desist letters to open-source contributors. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220
miohtama 3y ago
All mentioned projects look to be web focused? I would assume most of Porsche’s software value-add is in embedded systems. Can open source make a dent in the car components themselves?
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  Car companies often don't do the embedded development themselves. They usually rely on suppliers and a vast network of contractors to do most of that work, though things have been shifting back in-house in recent years for velocity/feature/security/bug fixing/institutional knowledge reasons. Some of that is becoming more open source, e.g. I've seen work from Ford and GM being open sourced, but it's relatively uncommon compared to the higher level stack.
jacquesm 3y ago
I like the basic idea, but unless Porsche moves away from manufacturer lock-in for all of the software on board of the vehicles, including the inability to inspect and/or repair the underlying hardware not much of use will come of efforts like this. It's like so many other brands that claim to love Open Source Software for marketing purposes but that continue to refuse to open up the key components of the software that they ship. Porsche could make some real headlines by opening up their ECU code and the code that drives their infotainment systems, would be nice if it was accompanied by schematics and the tools required to read-out and re-program the hardware. Fat chance that will ever happen because 'safety', 'environment' and a bunch of other fig-leaf excuses.
- bri3d 3y ago
  The biggest excuse is much more reasonable (albeit annoying, the same reason why most board support firmware isn't open source): ECUs are built using code generation from models (ASCET, LabView/Simulink, etc.) on top of 10 layers of proprietary middleware and compilers, using components supplied by hundreds of consulting firms, so an open-source effort would have to be a paradigm shift in the industry from the ground up. It's not something Porsche could decide to do on their own.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Well, they could dedicate a team to it if they were serious about it and work with open source advocates to make it all work. I'd rather have a tarball with hard to parse code and weird tooling than nothing at all. But - as I said - I have no illusions about this and see it as a marketing effort.
    - AlotOfReading 3y ago
      In my experience it's fairly common even for the manufacturer to not have full access to the code, let alone permission to open source it. I don't think it makes it merely a "marketing effort" if they avoid that.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Yes, I'm aware of that. Which is why my assumption that this would be a red herring was born out. As long as Freescale and Bosch are in control I don't see any of this changing.
    - thot_experiment 3y ago
      Honestly just documenting the APIs the different components use to talk to one another would be incredibly helpful. There are so many things that could be done in the pursuit of openness that absolutely won't be.
    - archi42 3y ago
sampli 3y ago
Big headline, small impact
globular-toast 3y ago
So does hashtag mean something sort of like a mini proper noun now?
elzbardico 3y ago
By the way, is there any open ECU/Sensor/Inject solution that someone could buy to retrofit old engines?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  https://megasquirt.info/ https://megasquirt.info/ is one (and one of the most well-known). I've considered doing a retrofit on a classic Mustang V8, but the old-school carb works well enough that it's not been a priority. Edit: sibling comment correctly identifies the code as not open-source. (I could have sworn it was; perhaps it started that way, or perhaps the amount of open it was when I last looked in detail was sufficient for my plans.)
- tadfisher 3y ago
  Speeduino is the open-source (as in hardware and software) solution. Megasquirt is most definitely not open.
- djaychela 3y ago
  As mentioned in another answer, megasquirt. I used the first generation one to retrofit injection to my carburated rally car with home made manifold and repuposed injection throttle bodies from a gpz 1100. Even badly self tuned it worked better than the carb did.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, several actually with a more or less drop-in replacement for anything from 3 to 12 cylinders, it mostly depends on how much work you want to do adapting a particular piece of hardware to the sensors and actuators on your engine. That's the hard part, once you have reliable sensor data and ways to create reliable output it's mostly configuration work and you're good to go. Off the top of my head, non-free licenses: - AEM - Haltec - MegaSquirt - Motec - Profec Free licenses: - Speeduino - RusEFI And probably many others. There are also special units designed for the race track folks.
aktenlage 3y ago
Even if this just a small step and essentially nothing, when compared to software giants like google, I consider it a good sign that such traditional manufacturers do their first humble steps into a good direction.
- maelito 3y ago
  Looks like a Vercel, probably Nextjs error ?
Hydraulix989 3y ago
Porsche is just VW. Why can't VW spearhead this for a much greater impact?
- broodbucket 3y ago
  The VW group is weird. From the outside it looks like they must have the most mental internal politics, unlikely that they'd push an initiative like that through all their brands that operate almost as distinct companies
  - randerson 3y ago
    I think I have this right: The Porsche Family owns half of Porsche SE (but 100% of the voting power), which in turn owns the majority of voting shares in VW, which in turn owns the majority of Porsche AG (the car manufacturer). All of which are distinct publicly listed companies. I'm surprised anyone knows who they actually work for.
mathverse 3y ago
It took german automakers a decade to be international and they still hire just "german" speakers to some teams. Hard pass.
- leonheld 3y ago
  Germany companies are so weird in this aspect, and I honestly believe it's why they kinda lost the tech race. The US is very much different in this diversity aspect, which honestly seems like a success factor.
  - avar 3y ago
    There's US tech companies hiring people that don't speak English?
    - yurishimo 3y ago
      No, but I think it's different when you consider that 90%+ of the Germans on these software teams also speak pretty good English. I'm not saying that employees don't need to learn German, but you can give them a few years to catch up rather than leave willing talent on the table. The Netherlands has done a much better job in this regard and is why they are booming as a headquarters for EU fintech companies. Sure, speaking Dutch will always open more doors for you as an employee, but most companies will not outright dismiss your CV because you can't speak the language on day 1.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        In NL in IT it isn't rare at all to find people who don't speak Dutch, even in management (all the way up to C-level) positions.
    - leonheld 3y ago
      You know it's not a fair comparison due to how widespread English is and German is not.
- radiator 3y ago
awill 3y ago
They're using Android? I think they'd be much better off using something like Automotive Grade Linux. Google's car ambitions have been pretty disastrous, including the newer Volvos. Reviews of the Volvo Android Automotive infotainment are just awful. And I don't trust Google to not abandon it.
- the_pwner224 3y ago
  BMW is also moving from AGL to Android. But they're only using Android as an OS; the user facing UI isn't going to change. And it's not integrated with Google. That's different from Android Automotive / Volvo where the basic UI comes form Google and the stack is full of Google integration. BMW's method of using Android as the underlying OS seems like a reasonable option to me. Not sure what exactly Porsche is doing here.
leke 3y ago
Application error: a client-side exception has occurred (see the browser console for more information). Did we kill it already?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
super_linear 3y ago
Potentially vaguely related, the Eclipse foundation project GM is backing to establish an open source protocol for vehicle app / service communication: https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/automotive.uprotocol https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/automotive.uprotocol
blt 3y ago
Hey Porsche execs: The actual recipe to attract better developers is to raise your salaries.
actionfromafar 3y ago
"Application error: a client-side exception has occurred (see the browser console for more information)."
bryancoxwell 3y ago
I love the idea but boy the use of hashtags is nauseating.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jancsika 3y ago
From the history of FOSS phones, I feel like we need to start much smaller here. How many lines of code would it take to build a FOSS golf cart?
choppaface 3y ago
Does Porsche even know how to software? When the Taycan was new, it had horrible software and the system would crash on the freeway. A Googler dug in a bit with the dealer and found it was running docker / docker compose and a bunch of the containers would just die sometimes. He banded some other Google Taycan owners (there’s probably a group ..) and they got their own NHSTA recall. Here’s an example of one of the many recalls: https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/wnj8-wnk1-ana6-software-updates-recall-details.12386/ https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/wnj8-wnk1-ana6-sof...
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Blog post announcing it from (2021). How's it been going since? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28627902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28627902
qwertox 3y ago
What is this? Just some stuff for designers so that their webpages and brochures match or what? I was really excited and expecting some info on their CAN bus and OS. Sigh...
1f60c 3y ago
> porsche-design-system/porsche-design-system Why do companies open-source their design systems? Other people aren't allowed to create a website that looks like Porsche.com because of copyright and trademark laws anyway. I always assumed it's because properly securing it is too much work for little gain (because of the reasons above), but maybe there's more to it?
- epolanski 3y ago
  Because they want you to write components that fit their design language if you're integrating into their ecosystem.
  - 1f60c 3y ago
    I knew I was missing something. Thank you!
- nikeee 3y ago
  I've used their design system several years. It wasn't always on npm and it used to be on a private npm registry (I am assuming that it was for the reasons you mentioned). Essentially, there are contractors and thrid parties that develop stuff for them and they want it to look the same as the rest of their stuff. Putting it out in the open made things much easier. The private registry was hard to integrate in our CI/CD pipeline. You couldn't just open an issue on GitHub (it existed, but I think noone was looking at this), but had to write some slack messages - to which you needed access to. It's just more cost-effective this way.
epolanski 3y ago
Slightly OT, but Porsche has recently sold itself to me as a great carmaker when they released a new infotainment system for their 20 years old Cayenne. Compare it to another Stuttgart carmaker like Mercedes Benz...where half of the stuff released doesn't work anymore few years later, it's a night and day difference.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Interesting! Wonder what it cost. The amount of non-standard wiring that goes into those is insane, two connectors with an absolute mass of wiring tied into just about every part of the car. I've installed an aftermarket unit in a vehicle like that and it was quite the adventure in undocumented interfaces land. All is well that ends well though.
  - piperswe 3y ago
    Looks like it's about $1,500: https://porsche.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/porsche-porsche-classic-communication-95564259000?c=az0x https://porsche.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/porsche-porsche...
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Considering it is Porsche that is surprisingly affordable.
    - selcuka 3y ago
      More info: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_AU/2023/products/porsche-classic-communication-management-plus-for-retrofitting-30977.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_AU/2023/products/porsche-cla... > A corresponding product range is now available, with immediate effect, for the sixth-generation 911 generation 997 for model years 2005 to 2008, the early Boxster and Cayman generation 987 for model years 2005 to 2008 and the first-generation Cayenne for model years 2003 to 2008.
- piperswe 3y ago
  Porsche cares quite a lot about heritage. They have a reputation for treating all Porsches, no matter their age, the same. I'm a pretty big fan, though I don't own one of their cars quite yet. Some day!
ushakov 3y ago
It feels like a sort of "green-washing" to me. Let's call it "oss-washing"
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
louthy 3y ago
It’s a shame they don’t open-source their infotainment system. Not that I want to modify my 911, but there’s privacy settings in there that I find concerning, so it’d be good to look at the source. And, just from a curiosity PoV, I’d like to see the car management code. I think it’s important that individuals can’t change the code running their cars; that’s just got ‘massive car accident’ written all over it. But being able to see and possibly contribute to the software would be great.
snapplebobapple 3y ago
All of a sudden the chance i buy a Porsche went from 0% to 10-15%...
vGPU 3y ago
Wow, and the documentation is remarkably good.
pabs3 3y ago
Hmm, shame they require a CLA. https://opensource.porsche.com/docs/cla https://opensource.porsche.com/docs/cla https://drewdevault.com/2023/07/04/Dont-sign-a-CLA-2.html https://drewdevault.com/2023/07/04/Dont-sign-a-CLA-2.html

Meanwhile, Mazda is sending cease and desist letters to open-source contributors. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37874220

miohtama 3y ago

All mentioned projects look to be web focused? I would assume most of Porsche’s software value-add is in embedded systems. Can open source make a dent in the car components themselves?

AlotOfReading 3y ago
Car companies often don't do the embedded development themselves. They usually rely on suppliers and a vast network of contractors to do most of that work, though things have been shifting back in-house in recent years for velocity/feature/security/bug fixing/institutional knowledge reasons. Some of that is becoming more open source, e.g. I've seen work from Ford and GM being open sourced, but it's relatively uncommon compared to the higher level stack.

jacquesm 3y ago

I like the basic idea, but unless Porsche moves away from manufacturer lock-in for all of the software on board of the vehicles, including the inability to inspect and/or repair the underlying hardware not much of use will come of efforts like this. It's like so many other brands that claim to love Open Source Software for marketing purposes but that continue to refuse to open up the key components of the software that they ship. Porsche could make some real headlines by opening up their ECU code and the code that drives their infotainment systems, would be nice if it was accompanied by schematics and the tools required to read-out and re-program the hardware. Fat chance that will ever happen because 'safety', 'environment' and a bunch of other fig-leaf excuses.

bri3d 3y ago
The biggest excuse is much more reasonable (albeit annoying, the same reason why most board support firmware isn't open source): ECUs are built using code generation from models (ASCET, LabView/Simulink, etc.) on top of 10 layers of proprietary middleware and compilers, using components supplied by hundreds of consulting firms, so an open-source effort would have to be a paradigm shift in the industry from the ground up. It's not something Porsche could decide to do on their own.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Well, they could dedicate a team to it if they were serious about it and work with open source advocates to make it all work. I'd rather have a tarball with hard to parse code and weird tooling than nothing at all. But - as I said - I have no illusions about this and see it as a marketing effort.
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    In my experience it's fairly common even for the manufacturer to not have full access to the code, let alone permission to open source it. I don't think it makes it merely a "marketing effort" if they avoid that.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Yes, I'm aware of that. Which is why my assumption that this would be a red herring was born out. As long as Freescale and Bosch are in control I don't see any of this changing.
  - thot_experiment 3y ago
    Honestly just documenting the APIs the different components use to talk to one another would be incredibly helpful. There are so many things that could be done in the pursuit of openness that absolutely won't be.
  - archi42 3y ago

sampli 3y ago

Big headline, small impact

globular-toast 3y ago

So does hashtag mean something sort of like a mini proper noun now?

elzbardico 3y ago

By the way, is there any open ECU/Sensor/Inject solution that someone could buy to retrofit old engines?

sokoloff 3y ago
https://megasquirt.info/ https://megasquirt.info/ is one (and one of the most well-known). I've considered doing a retrofit on a classic Mustang V8, but the old-school carb works well enough that it's not been a priority. Edit: sibling comment correctly identifies the code as not open-source. (I could have sworn it was; perhaps it started that way, or perhaps the amount of open it was when I last looked in detail was sufficient for my plans.)
tadfisher 3y ago
Speeduino is the open-source (as in hardware and software) solution. Megasquirt is most definitely not open.
djaychela 3y ago
As mentioned in another answer, megasquirt. I used the first generation one to retrofit injection to my carburated rally car with home made manifold and repuposed injection throttle bodies from a gpz 1100. Even badly self tuned it worked better than the carb did.
jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, several actually with a more or less drop-in replacement for anything from 3 to 12 cylinders, it mostly depends on how much work you want to do adapting a particular piece of hardware to the sensors and actuators on your engine. That's the hard part, once you have reliable sensor data and ways to create reliable output it's mostly configuration work and you're good to go. Off the top of my head, non-free licenses: - AEM - Haltec - MegaSquirt - Motec - Profec Free licenses: - Speeduino - RusEFI And probably many others. There are also special units designed for the race track folks.

aktenlage 3y ago

Even if this just a small step and essentially nothing, when compared to software giants like google, I consider it a good sign that such traditional manufacturers do their first humble steps into a good direction.

maelito 3y ago
Looks like a Vercel, probably Nextjs error ?

Hydraulix989 3y ago

Porsche is just VW. Why can't VW spearhead this for a much greater impact?

broodbucket 3y ago
The VW group is weird. From the outside it looks like they must have the most mental internal politics, unlikely that they'd push an initiative like that through all their brands that operate almost as distinct companies
- randerson 3y ago
  I think I have this right: The Porsche Family owns half of Porsche SE (but 100% of the voting power), which in turn owns the majority of voting shares in VW, which in turn owns the majority of Porsche AG (the car manufacturer). All of which are distinct publicly listed companies. I'm surprised anyone knows who they actually work for.

mathverse 3y ago

It took german automakers a decade to be international and they still hire just "german" speakers to some teams. Hard pass.

leonheld 3y ago
Germany companies are so weird in this aspect, and I honestly believe it's why they kinda lost the tech race. The US is very much different in this diversity aspect, which honestly seems like a success factor.
- avar 3y ago
  There's US tech companies hiring people that don't speak English?
  - yurishimo 3y ago
    No, but I think it's different when you consider that 90%+ of the Germans on these software teams also speak pretty good English. I'm not saying that employees don't need to learn German, but you can give them a few years to catch up rather than leave willing talent on the table. The Netherlands has done a much better job in this regard and is why they are booming as a headquarters for EU fintech companies. Sure, speaking Dutch will always open more doors for you as an employee, but most companies will not outright dismiss your CV because you can't speak the language on day 1.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      In NL in IT it isn't rare at all to find people who don't speak Dutch, even in management (all the way up to C-level) positions.
  - leonheld 3y ago
    You know it's not a fair comparison due to how widespread English is and German is not.
radiator 3y ago

awill 3y ago

They're using Android? I think they'd be much better off using something like Automotive Grade Linux. Google's car ambitions have been pretty disastrous, including the newer Volvos. Reviews of the Volvo Android Automotive infotainment are just awful. And I don't trust Google to not abandon it.

the_pwner224 3y ago
BMW is also moving from AGL to Android. But they're only using Android as an OS; the user facing UI isn't going to change. And it's not integrated with Google. That's different from Android Automotive / Volvo where the basic UI comes form Google and the stack is full of Google integration. BMW's method of using Android as the underlying OS seems like a reasonable option to me. Not sure what exactly Porsche is doing here.

leke 3y ago

Application error: a client-side exception has occurred (see the browser console for more information). Did we kill it already?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

super_linear 3y ago

Potentially vaguely related, the Eclipse foundation project GM is backing to establish an open source protocol for vehicle app / service communication: https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/automotive.uprotocol https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/automotive.uprotocol

blt 3y ago

Hey Porsche execs: The actual recipe to attract better developers is to raise your salaries.

actionfromafar 3y ago

"Application error: a client-side exception has occurred (see the browser console for more information)."

bryancoxwell 3y ago

I love the idea but boy the use of hashtags is nauseating.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jancsika 3y ago

From the history of FOSS phones, I feel like we need to start much smaller here. How many lines of code would it take to build a FOSS golf cart?

choppaface 3y ago

Does Porsche even know how to software? When the Taycan was new, it had horrible software and the system would crash on the freeway. A Googler dug in a bit with the dealer and found it was running docker / docker compose and a bunch of the containers would just die sometimes. He banded some other Google Taycan owners (there’s probably a group ..) and they got their own NHSTA recall. Here’s an example of one of the many recalls: https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/wnj8-wnk1-ana6-software-updates-recall-details.12386/ https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/wnj8-wnk1-ana6-sof...

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Blog post announcing it from (2021). How's it been going since? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28627902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28627902

qwertox 3y ago

What is this? Just some stuff for designers so that their webpages and brochures match or what? I was really excited and expecting some info on their CAN bus and OS. Sigh...

1f60c 3y ago

> porsche-design-system/porsche-design-system Why do companies open-source their design systems? Other people aren't allowed to create a website that looks like Porsche.com because of copyright and trademark laws anyway. I always assumed it's because properly securing it is too much work for little gain (because of the reasons above), but maybe there's more to it?

epolanski 3y ago
Because they want you to write components that fit their design language if you're integrating into their ecosystem.
- 1f60c 3y ago
  I knew I was missing something. Thank you!
nikeee 3y ago
I've used their design system several years. It wasn't always on npm and it used to be on a private npm registry (I am assuming that it was for the reasons you mentioned). Essentially, there are contractors and thrid parties that develop stuff for them and they want it to look the same as the rest of their stuff. Putting it out in the open made things much easier. The private registry was hard to integrate in our CI/CD pipeline. You couldn't just open an issue on GitHub (it existed, but I think noone was looking at this), but had to write some slack messages - to which you needed access to. It's just more cost-effective this way.

epolanski 3y ago

Slightly OT, but Porsche has recently sold itself to me as a great carmaker when they released a new infotainment system for their 20 years old Cayenne. Compare it to another Stuttgart carmaker like Mercedes Benz...where half of the stuff released doesn't work anymore few years later, it's a night and day difference.

jacquesm 3y ago
Interesting! Wonder what it cost. The amount of non-standard wiring that goes into those is insane, two connectors with an absolute mass of wiring tied into just about every part of the car. I've installed an aftermarket unit in a vehicle like that and it was quite the adventure in undocumented interfaces land. All is well that ends well though.
- piperswe 3y ago
  Looks like it's about $1,500: https://porsche.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/porsche-porsche-classic-communication-95564259000?c=az0x https://porsche.oempartsonline.com/oem-parts/porsche-porsche...
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Considering it is Porsche that is surprisingly affordable.
  - selcuka 3y ago
    More info: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_AU/2023/products/porsche-classic-communication-management-plus-for-retrofitting-30977.html https://newsroom.porsche.com/en_AU/2023/products/porsche-cla... > A corresponding product range is now available, with immediate effect, for the sixth-generation 911 generation 997 for model years 2005 to 2008, the early Boxster and Cayman generation 987 for model years 2005 to 2008 and the first-generation Cayenne for model years 2003 to 2008.
piperswe 3y ago
Porsche cares quite a lot about heritage. They have a reputation for treating all Porsches, no matter their age, the same. I'm a pretty big fan, though I don't own one of their cars quite yet. Some day!

ushakov 3y ago

It feels like a sort of "green-washing" to me. Let's call it "oss-washing"

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

louthy 3y ago

It’s a shame they don’t open-source their infotainment system. Not that I want to modify my 911, but there’s privacy settings in there that I find concerning, so it’d be good to look at the source. And, just from a curiosity PoV, I’d like to see the car management code. I think it’s important that individuals can’t change the code running their cars; that’s just got ‘massive car accident’ written all over it. But being able to see and possibly contribute to the software would be great.

snapplebobapple 3y ago

All of a sudden the chance i buy a Porsche went from 0% to 10-15%...

vGPU 3y ago

Wow, and the documentation is remarkably good.

pabs3 3y ago

Hmm, shame they require a CLA. https://opensource.porsche.com/docs/cla https://opensource.porsche.com/docs/cla https://drewdevault.com/2023/07/04/Dont-sign-a-CLA-2.html https://drewdevault.com/2023/07/04/Dont-sign-a-CLA-2.html