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"I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives." Well, what are the obje

"I really don’t see how these would work in anything other than very basic scenarios, even less how they would achieve the objectives." Well, what are the objectives? If they are complex, so should the code be complex. That's the nature of our job. By adding an advanced framework you up the complexity by default. Instead of adding more code, you add more build dependencies. This is especially wasteful on websites. In my opinion, people today are afraid of writing code. Everyone wants some framework to write code for them. That is not how we push our industry forward.

codeptualize 3y ago
In some sense I agree, I am very mindful of the dependencies I add and I am not afraid to write something custom if that better fits the situation. But this article is not showing me how to do that and the things listed are not going to have an impact on the complexity of my projects as these basic things are solved quite well. > By adding an advanced framework you up the complexity by default If you know your project will remain simple then by all means. That's often not how it works though and then you end up writing a framework yourself once the scope gets increased and features are added. Adding to that that using a framework gives you so many things for free. There are so many aspects to a good website and leaning on a group of people specialising in all those things is often a smart move with better outcomes. I think the initial complexity might be a little bit higher, but there often is a big return on investment later on, and also immediately in terms of productivity. I'm not going to stop you from not using a framework, I think it's great to experience it, have been there many times before, got burned (badly), and now make different decisions.
jaapbadlands 3y ago
No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions. Frameworks abstract complexity, which in practical terms decreases the complexity I personally have to deal with, and shifts the complexity to the minds of a team of open-source developers who support the framework or library in parallel. Abstraction is exactly how we push the industry forward, not by building less, more basic, and shittier applications in a some faux-noble quest to use inline event handlers.
- wheelerof4te 3y ago
  "No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions." Then, enjoy maintaining React apps once React inevitably bites the dust and ends up in the JS framework graveyard.
  - codeptualize 3y ago
    When there are so many projects that run on React, and so many companies rely on React, it's inevitable that it will be supported for a long time to come, even if it would go out of fashion. And speaking from experience maintaining React apps is quite nice. React has great backwards compatibility, and where it doesn't there are usually codemods available. Dependencies can be tricky, but that's not exclusive to React. Also don't forget React evolves, backed by multiple #huge companies, and still innovating.
  - pault 3y ago
    The chances of this happening before your project is obsolete are pretty slim. Edit: it depends on what you mean by "bites the dust". If you mean "isn't cool anymore" then I'd say that's kind of irrelevant. If you mean "isn't supported anymore", I don't see that happening any time within the next decade at least. Rails isn't cool anymore but it's still supported and lots of people are still (more or less) happily using it at their day jobs. React is so widely used it'll be kept on life support long after it has been supplanted by something better, if and when that happens.
    - codeptualize 3y ago
      Another good example is jQuery, the last release was 2 months ago, and there is plenty of activity on GH.
    - Xeamek 3y ago
      >React is so widely used it'll be kept on life support long after it has been supplanted by something better, if and when that happens. React might be 10 years old, but it changed like 5 times during that time. Something built in first or second version of React is pretty much an entirely different framework at this point. (Would it even build with using the newset toolchains?). It's almost disingenuous to ignore that fact. So while it's unlikely that there won't be a thing called "React" in the future, it's not that crazy of an idea.

codeptualize 3y ago

In some sense I agree, I am very mindful of the dependencies I add and I am not afraid to write something custom if that better fits the situation. But this article is not showing me how to do that and the things listed are not going to have an impact on the complexity of my projects as these basic things are solved quite well. > By adding an advanced framework you up the complexity by default If you know your project will remain simple then by all means. That's often not how it works though and then you end up writing a framework yourself once the scope gets increased and features are added. Adding to that that using a framework gives you so many things for free. There are so many aspects to a good website and leaning on a group of people specialising in all those things is often a smart move with better outcomes. I think the initial complexity might be a little bit higher, but there often is a big return on investment later on, and also immediately in terms of productivity. I'm not going to stop you from not using a framework, I think it's great to experience it, have been there many times before, got burned (badly), and now make different decisions.

jaapbadlands 3y ago

No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions. Frameworks abstract complexity, which in practical terms decreases the complexity I personally have to deal with, and shifts the complexity to the minds of a team of open-source developers who support the framework or library in parallel. Abstraction is exactly how we push the industry forward, not by building less, more basic, and shittier applications in a some faux-noble quest to use inline event handlers.

wheelerof4te 3y ago
"No one is afraid of writing code, we're afraid of maintaining code, and solving tedious and repetitive problems that already have solutions." Then, enjoy maintaining React apps once React inevitably bites the dust and ends up in the JS framework graveyard.
- codeptualize 3y ago
  When there are so many projects that run on React, and so many companies rely on React, it's inevitable that it will be supported for a long time to come, even if it would go out of fashion. And speaking from experience maintaining React apps is quite nice. React has great backwards compatibility, and where it doesn't there are usually codemods available. Dependencies can be tricky, but that's not exclusive to React. Also don't forget React evolves, backed by multiple #huge companies, and still innovating.
- pault 3y ago
  The chances of this happening before your project is obsolete are pretty slim. Edit: it depends on what you mean by "bites the dust". If you mean "isn't cool anymore" then I'd say that's kind of irrelevant. If you mean "isn't supported anymore", I don't see that happening any time within the next decade at least. Rails isn't cool anymore but it's still supported and lots of people are still (more or less) happily using it at their day jobs. React is so widely used it'll be kept on life support long after it has been supplanted by something better, if and when that happens.
  - codeptualize 3y ago
    Another good example is jQuery, the last release was 2 months ago, and there is plenty of activity on GH.
  - Xeamek 3y ago
    >React is so widely used it'll be kept on life support long after it has been supplanted by something better, if and when that happens. React might be 10 years old, but it changed like 5 times during that time. Something built in first or second version of React is pretty much an entirely different framework at this point. (Would it even build with using the newset toolchains?). It's almost disingenuous to ignore that fact. So while it's unlikely that there won't be a thing called "React" in the future, it's not that crazy of an idea.