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What's wrong with plastic national identity documents exactly, are they too heavy, too large, not enough waterproof? With the next wave of broad consent for aut

What's wrong with plastic national identity documents exactly, are they too heavy, too large, not enough waterproof? With the next wave of broad consent for authoritarianism like during 2020-2022, the new "features" promptly integrated into this ecosystem will be not nice at all. > Finally, the revised law clarifies the scope of the qualified web authentication certificates (QWACs), which ensures that users can verify who is behind a website, while preserving the current well-established industry security rules and standards. Pan-Europan edition of the German Impressum enforced by hordes of vicious bloodthirsty legal trolls and predators.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
This is about proving identity online across the EU. Most plastic national IDs obviously don’t work for EU-wide online uses because not all EU identity cards have a corresponding smartcard chip, and there would not be a standardized system without an EU-level decision like the one discussed here. When eID has been rolled out at the national level, it allows you to log into, say, your tax account or social-security account by simply logging into your bank. Your bank was already compelled to do all the work of vetting your identity, so the state trusts the bank to pass on your authentication.
- expertentipp 3y ago
  > Your bank was already compelled to do all the work of vetting your identity, so the state trusts the bank to pass on your authentication. Long time ago I thought it's an okayish idea, but to think of it... banks and governments are separate entities with not exactly overlapping interests. Lots of heavyweight lobbying happening. Many of their interests are not in favour of an individual. I don't want to connect dots for them, it's not going to work in my favour. Ideally the only data shared between banks and governments regarding a law-abiding citizen would be only an IBAN.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > Most plastic national IDs obviously don’t work for EU-wide online uses because not all EU identity cards have a corresponding smartcard chip This is a good thing. It should be inconvenient to authenticate real identities over the internet because otherwise it will be used for tracking. Meanwhile there is no real problem with doing a one-time account creation with your bank or social security administration in person for the few things that actually need it.
  - V__ 3y ago
    > It should be inconvenient to authenticate real identities over the internet because otherwise it will be used for tracking. Depends on how it is implemented.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      It doesn't. Once you're required to give your name, there will be political pressure to create a process for associating the name with whatever you did in the event that you did something "bad" and then tracking infrastructure will be tacked on regardless of whether it was in the original system. Meanwhile the more convenient it is, the more websites will use it, but there are people who won't risk giving their name because they're a persecuted minority. So they get excluded from spaces they can currently exist unless they put their lives at risk by hoping that the security of the system holds even though it was designed by committee and implemented by the lowest bidder. It's still tracking even if you're not supposed to store the information, when there is no way for the client to verify that.
      - V__ 3y ago
        That is a bad implementation, then. You could just as well design a system, where the only parties involved are the person and the party asking for identification. The only way to then track behavior would be to be embedded at every single business, etc. Take the German eID system, for example. Every national ID thus person has a signed certificate on the ID chip. Let's say a porn site wants to know you are over 18. They ask you to provide this. The chip response with a signed yes. No name, no other data. The site checks if the certificate is signed correctly but doesn't know anything else about you. The government also doesn't know anything about your behavior.
        zeeZ 3y ago
        Documentation: https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03130 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03130 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03124 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03124 The individual specification PDFs are in English.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
> What's wrong with plastic national identity documents exactly, are they too heavy, too large Yes, in fact they are. I can store my credit cards on my phone, but I still have to carry around my id cards and it's annoying. I have to take my phone and I'd rather not take anything else. Having only one thing to lose (actually two including my car key) means that I might actually be able to keep track and hold onto it. It's a real problem for the absent minded. Inconveniencing yourself due to some vague paranoia about government is for the tin foil hat crowd. Here in the real, rational world you need to carry your driver's licence and your id card to get things done.
- expertentipp 3y ago
  > credit cards on my phone Take a physical card and a phone. Throw both on them on the ground and step on them, then let them lay there for two full days without connecting any cables to them. Then let me know which one will still work. > Inconveniencing yourself due to some vague paranoia about government is for the tin foil hat crowd. I'm equally irritated by an another extreme. Nowadays the bank branches are all hostesses selling credit deals. Cannot update personal details, refuse to deal with cash. On whatever non-credit request they almost snatch a mobile from my hand and force to install their bank app - "simply do it on your mobile". That's an inconvenience.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
    > Then let me know which one will still work. Neither of them work, now what do you do? Within minutes I can buy a new phone or retrieve my backup phone and be up and running again. Replacing those cards would take me several weeks.
    - expertentipp 3y ago
      The cards are much more likely to survive such "disaster". Cash as well. They can lay without needing attention for months.
  - theshrike79 3y ago

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

This is about proving identity online across the EU. Most plastic national IDs obviously don’t work for EU-wide online uses because not all EU identity cards have a corresponding smartcard chip, and there would not be a standardized system without an EU-level decision like the one discussed here. When eID has been rolled out at the national level, it allows you to log into, say, your tax account or social-security account by simply logging into your bank. Your bank was already compelled to do all the work of vetting your identity, so the state trusts the bank to pass on your authentication.

expertentipp 3y ago
> Your bank was already compelled to do all the work of vetting your identity, so the state trusts the bank to pass on your authentication. Long time ago I thought it's an okayish idea, but to think of it... banks and governments are separate entities with not exactly overlapping interests. Lots of heavyweight lobbying happening. Many of their interests are not in favour of an individual. I don't want to connect dots for them, it's not going to work in my favour. Ideally the only data shared between banks and governments regarding a law-abiding citizen would be only an IBAN.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> Most plastic national IDs obviously don’t work for EU-wide online uses because not all EU identity cards have a corresponding smartcard chip This is a good thing. It should be inconvenient to authenticate real identities over the internet because otherwise it will be used for tracking. Meanwhile there is no real problem with doing a one-time account creation with your bank or social security administration in person for the few things that actually need it.
- V__ 3y ago
  > It should be inconvenient to authenticate real identities over the internet because otherwise it will be used for tracking. Depends on how it is implemented.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    It doesn't. Once you're required to give your name, there will be political pressure to create a process for associating the name with whatever you did in the event that you did something "bad" and then tracking infrastructure will be tacked on regardless of whether it was in the original system. Meanwhile the more convenient it is, the more websites will use it, but there are people who won't risk giving their name because they're a persecuted minority. So they get excluded from spaces they can currently exist unless they put their lives at risk by hoping that the security of the system holds even though it was designed by committee and implemented by the lowest bidder. It's still tracking even if you're not supposed to store the information, when there is no way for the client to verify that.
    - V__ 3y ago
      That is a bad implementation, then. You could just as well design a system, where the only parties involved are the person and the party asking for identification. The only way to then track behavior would be to be embedded at every single business, etc. Take the German eID system, for example. Every national ID thus person has a signed certificate on the ID chip. Let's say a porn site wants to know you are over 18. They ask you to provide this. The chip response with a signed yes. No name, no other data. The site checks if the certificate is signed correctly but doesn't know anything else about you. The government also doesn't know anything about your behavior.
      - zeeZ 3y ago
        Documentation: https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03130 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03130 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03124 https://www.bsi.bund.de/dok/TR-03124 The individual specification PDFs are in English.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

> What's wrong with plastic national identity documents exactly, are they too heavy, too large Yes, in fact they are. I can store my credit cards on my phone, but I still have to carry around my id cards and it's annoying. I have to take my phone and I'd rather not take anything else. Having only one thing to lose (actually two including my car key) means that I might actually be able to keep track and hold onto it. It's a real problem for the absent minded. Inconveniencing yourself due to some vague paranoia about government is for the tin foil hat crowd. Here in the real, rational world you need to carry your driver's licence and your id card to get things done.

expertentipp 3y ago
> credit cards on my phone Take a physical card and a phone. Throw both on them on the ground and step on them, then let them lay there for two full days without connecting any cables to them. Then let me know which one will still work. > Inconveniencing yourself due to some vague paranoia about government is for the tin foil hat crowd. I'm equally irritated by an another extreme. Nowadays the bank branches are all hostesses selling credit deals. Cannot update personal details, refuse to deal with cash. On whatever non-credit request they almost snatch a mobile from my hand and force to install their bank app - "simply do it on your mobile". That's an inconvenience.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  > Then let me know which one will still work. Neither of them work, now what do you do? Within minutes I can buy a new phone or retrieve my backup phone and be up and running again. Replacing those cards would take me several weeks.
  - expertentipp 3y ago
    The cards are much more likely to survive such "disaster". Cash as well. They can lay without needing attention for months.
- theshrike79 3y ago