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> With the approval of the European digital identity regulation, we are taking a fundamental step so that citizens can have a unique and secure European digital

by rvz 3y ago

> With the approval of the European digital identity regulation, we are taking a fundamental step so that citizens can have a unique and secure European digital identity. This is a key advance for the European Union to be a global reference in the digital field, protecting our democratic rights and values. Another shoehorned decision which almost no-one wanted and no-one consulted the public on, since if they did it would be a resounding: No.

spurgu 3y ago
While I can be quite critical of the EU this actually sounds somewhat convenient, from a practical standpoint at least. Currently in Finland I can identify online through my Finnish bank credentials, but that's of no use in Spain for example because even if they were to recognize Finnish banks as authoritative the information that is passed from there is my Finnish social security number, while in Spain I identify either by passport number or by NIE (foreign identity number). A standardization would be convenient, that I could verify my identity online regardless of which European country I'm dealing with. Edit: I mean from a privacy standpoint we all have social security numbers already, this (on the surface at last) just seems like a standardization of identifying online across Eueopean countries. Or am I missing something? Edit2: But..! I would definitely vote against tying this to biometrics. But I think that ship has already sailed? Aren't everyone requiring biometrics for passports nowadays? So the only way to avoid it is to not travel.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- verisimi 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - yladiz 3y ago
    What?
    - verisimi 3y ago
      "I love being governed strongly. Government is like my mum or dad, and keeps me safe!" says every Scandinavian everytime. I thought you guys were vikings!
- FinnKuhn 3y ago
  The German ID also has an online verification function already in it, but if you are a Spanish citizen for example on holiday in Germany that doesn't help you. One EU-wide system is much better than a different one for each country as it helps to give equal access to online services regardless of your country of origin. That system is mostly just used for government websites, stuff like getting a new passport, change your registered address or view/submit your taxes. If you could do this stuff anywhere in the EU online no matter where you are from it would be way easier to move between countries and navigate different bureaucracies.
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  If such an ID were to be broadly established, people start to demand it being used for everything. Age verification, any form of transaction, social media will require it to filter content... We already see some of this even today, Blogger for example. At that point anonymity on the net becomes impractical. Honestly, even with government services getting easier to access, this is mostly not worth it.
  - spurgu 3y ago
    People generally don't demand anything, people in power do. Using all sorts of excuses like "your safety" or "pedophilia and terrorism". I just don't see a way to fight it, it's inevitable. The golden age of a free internet is already over. People are mostly on huge centralized platforms. You can fight it tooth and nail but it's a constant uphill battle where you take one step forward and two steps back. Meanwhile there will always be places like the dark web, where you can transact in crypto, but most of the internet will be strict and regulated. I just don't see why it wouldn't, since centralized power seems to be the tool of choice for most problems. It fucking sucks but it is what it is. I'll still keep donating to the EFF but that's just delaying the process. Sorry for the pessimist take.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
The desirability of eID that just works, regardless of what EU country you are from or in, has been discussed for years in tech circles in Europe, including on this very site.
bertil 3y ago
Most people who use official digital authentication appreciate the value and wish it was widely available. Such systems have not been breached or leaked information yet, despite being used daily by millions of people.
- Asooka 3y ago
  The problem I see is with having the government be the one that issues your digital id. It gives them more power to fuck with politically undesirable people. Currently I can get one of several companies to issue me with a digital certificate that I am person A, at least one of which could operate in defiance of corrupt orders. As an example, our banks will refuse to do business with you if you use your account to trade cryptocurrency. That is, if a bank catches you transferring money for the purpose of buying or selling cryptocurrency, you get blacklisted from doing any business with them at all forever. Your accounts get closed, you get your money back and are told to fuck off and never return. But you can still do it by using some other banking service. In contrast, if my government was the only bank I could use, they could debank me entirely and totally fuck me.
  - bertil 3y ago
    Banks don't have to offer you an ID; governments do.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    > In contrast, if my government was the only bank I could use, they could debank me entirely and totally fuck me. Digital government ID doesn't make the government into a bank. It also doesn't confer any powers that they don't already exercise through your physical government ID. Most countries already require some form of government ID in order to open a bank account, presumably they already blacklist these.
  - belorn 3y ago
    They two authentication systems that I know of that allow users to freely choose between authentication suppliers are websites supporting openid and RFC 6238. There are works being done in Sweden to create an open government identification standard where users can choose which trusted entity to use, assuming that those entities are trusted by the government website or service that require government ID. For Sweden that would likely mean a choice between banks or government issued digital id, which is a step up from current system of only having banks being the authority of online identification. An EU digital identity would be a third options. Those are not a digital certificate. They are more similar to single-sign-on system. It is the "authenticate with facebook" but without facebook and for things like healthcare and taxes. As a side note, the current system in Sweden is such that if you do get banned from banks in Sweden then you also loose your digital identity and will be unable to do most things in relation to government or healthcare.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Are you an EU citizen? Because anyone who is who likes to do things online would find this very convenient. Identity is very important when dealing with things like taxes, legal cases and various other rights and responsibilities. Instead of jerry rigged systems like SSN in the US, having something secure and reliable is gold.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  The only reason against I think is not wanting to give the government more control and more information about you than they already need. And what happens if/when they get hacked?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
surgical_fire 3y ago
> Another shoehorned decision which almost no-one wanted and no-one consulted the public on, since if they did it would be a resounding: > > No. Are you sure? I live in Europe, and I am in favor of this idea.

by rvz 3y ago

spurgu 3y ago

While I can be quite critical of the EU this actually sounds somewhat convenient, from a practical standpoint at least. Currently in Finland I can identify online through my Finnish bank credentials, but that's of no use in Spain for example because even if they were to recognize Finnish banks as authoritative the information that is passed from there is my Finnish social security number, while in Spain I identify either by passport number or by NIE (foreign identity number). A standardization would be convenient, that I could verify my identity online regardless of which European country I'm dealing with. Edit: I mean from a privacy standpoint we all have social security numbers already, this (on the surface at last) just seems like a standardization of identifying online across Eueopean countries. Or am I missing something? Edit2: But..! I would definitely vote against tying this to biometrics. But I think that ship has already sailed? Aren't everyone requiring biometrics for passports nowadays? So the only way to avoid it is to not travel.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
verisimi 3y ago
[flagged]
- yladiz 3y ago
  What?
  - verisimi 3y ago
    "I love being governed strongly. Government is like my mum or dad, and keeps me safe!" says every Scandinavian everytime. I thought you guys were vikings!
FinnKuhn 3y ago
The German ID also has an online verification function already in it, but if you are a Spanish citizen for example on holiday in Germany that doesn't help you. One EU-wide system is much better than a different one for each country as it helps to give equal access to online services regardless of your country of origin. That system is mostly just used for government websites, stuff like getting a new passport, change your registered address or view/submit your taxes. If you could do this stuff anywhere in the EU online no matter where you are from it would be way easier to move between countries and navigate different bureaucracies.
raxxorraxor 3y ago
If such an ID were to be broadly established, people start to demand it being used for everything. Age verification, any form of transaction, social media will require it to filter content... We already see some of this even today, Blogger for example. At that point anonymity on the net becomes impractical. Honestly, even with government services getting easier to access, this is mostly not worth it.
- spurgu 3y ago
  People generally don't demand anything, people in power do. Using all sorts of excuses like "your safety" or "pedophilia and terrorism". I just don't see a way to fight it, it's inevitable. The golden age of a free internet is already over. People are mostly on huge centralized platforms. You can fight it tooth and nail but it's a constant uphill battle where you take one step forward and two steps back. Meanwhile there will always be places like the dark web, where you can transact in crypto, but most of the internet will be strict and regulated. I just don't see why it wouldn't, since centralized power seems to be the tool of choice for most problems. It fucking sucks but it is what it is. I'll still keep donating to the EFF but that's just delaying the process. Sorry for the pessimist take.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

The desirability of eID that just works, regardless of what EU country you are from or in, has been discussed for years in tech circles in Europe, including on this very site.

bertil 3y ago

Most people who use official digital authentication appreciate the value and wish it was widely available. Such systems have not been breached or leaked information yet, despite being used daily by millions of people.

Asooka 3y ago
The problem I see is with having the government be the one that issues your digital id. It gives them more power to fuck with politically undesirable people. Currently I can get one of several companies to issue me with a digital certificate that I am person A, at least one of which could operate in defiance of corrupt orders. As an example, our banks will refuse to do business with you if you use your account to trade cryptocurrency. That is, if a bank catches you transferring money for the purpose of buying or selling cryptocurrency, you get blacklisted from doing any business with them at all forever. Your accounts get closed, you get your money back and are told to fuck off and never return. But you can still do it by using some other banking service. In contrast, if my government was the only bank I could use, they could debank me entirely and totally fuck me.
- bertil 3y ago
  Banks don't have to offer you an ID; governments do.
- Jochim 3y ago
  > In contrast, if my government was the only bank I could use, they could debank me entirely and totally fuck me. Digital government ID doesn't make the government into a bank. It also doesn't confer any powers that they don't already exercise through your physical government ID. Most countries already require some form of government ID in order to open a bank account, presumably they already blacklist these.
- belorn 3y ago
  They two authentication systems that I know of that allow users to freely choose between authentication suppliers are websites supporting openid and RFC 6238. There are works being done in Sweden to create an open government identification standard where users can choose which trusted entity to use, assuming that those entities are trusted by the government website or service that require government ID. For Sweden that would likely mean a choice between banks or government issued digital id, which is a step up from current system of only having banks being the authority of online identification. An EU digital identity would be a third options. Those are not a digital certificate. They are more similar to single-sign-on system. It is the "authenticate with facebook" but without facebook and for things like healthcare and taxes. As a side note, the current system in Sweden is such that if you do get banned from banks in Sweden then you also loose your digital identity and will be unable to do most things in relation to government or healthcare.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

Are you an EU citizen? Because anyone who is who likes to do things online would find this very convenient. Identity is very important when dealing with things like taxes, legal cases and various other rights and responsibilities. Instead of jerry rigged systems like SSN in the US, having something secure and reliable is gold.

PrimeMcFly 3y ago
The only reason against I think is not wanting to give the government more control and more information about you than they already need. And what happens if/when they get hacked?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

surgical_fire 3y ago

> Another shoehorned decision which almost no-one wanted and no-one consulted the public on, since if they did it would be a resounding: > > No. Are you sure? I live in Europe, and I am in favor of this idea.