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Flipping the question around, what exactly are you worried they will do? I'm on your "side" on this in that I dislike closed ecosystems, spyware and not having

Flipping the question around, what exactly are you worried they will do? I'm on your "side" on this in that I dislike closed ecosystems, spyware and not having control over my own devices. But I am not in tech and the vast majority of people I know don't care about this and likely never will, and every year that goes by without Apple remotely bricking their phone with no recourse only strengthens their apathy. Trust doesn't have to be unqualified. You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world. It is not a false dichotomy: Apple controls who gets to use iPhones and what they get to do on iPhones. Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? >> You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. Yes, but for how long and under what conditions? How willing are people to change when they are locked-in to the Apple ecosystem?
- NoboruWataya 3y ago
  > Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? > Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? These are not restrictions that are likely to be relevant to the people I am talking about. You will ask me how I know. The statement is forward looking so obviously I can't prove it, but I know people who have happily been using iPhones for 15+ years without ever giving a thought to these questions. (I know that because I've had this same conversation with some of them.) In the meantime, these people can go where they want, do what they want, say what they want, etc etc. They are not, in any real sense, being controlled by the software on their iPhone. If you live in the first world, pay your bills, are not a criminal and your phone usage is mostly limited to Instagram and WhatsApp, the likelihood of your Apple account being shut down without warning or recourse is very small. So for such people, the risk is too remote to dedicate much thought to.
  - harph 3y ago
    > using iPhones for 20+ years You probably meant Apple devices in general? The iPhone is not yet 20 years old.
    - NoboruWataya 3y ago
      Sorry, that's right. For the iPhone probably about 15 years (ie, since not long after it first came out). Edited my previous comment.

thesuperbigfrog 3y ago

>> "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world. It is not a false dichotomy: Apple controls who gets to use iPhones and what they get to do on iPhones. Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? >> You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. Yes, but for how long and under what conditions? How willing are people to change when they are locked-in to the Apple ecosystem?

NoboruWataya 3y ago
> Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? > Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? These are not restrictions that are likely to be relevant to the people I am talking about. You will ask me how I know. The statement is forward looking so obviously I can't prove it, but I know people who have happily been using iPhones for 15+ years without ever giving a thought to these questions. (I know that because I've had this same conversation with some of them.) In the meantime, these people can go where they want, do what they want, say what they want, etc etc. They are not, in any real sense, being controlled by the software on their iPhone. If you live in the first world, pay your bills, are not a criminal and your phone usage is mostly limited to Instagram and WhatsApp, the likelihood of your Apple account being shut down without warning or recourse is very small. So for such people, the risk is too remote to dedicate much thought to.
- harph 3y ago
  > using iPhones for 20+ years You probably meant Apple devices in general? The iPhone is not yet 20 years old.
  - NoboruWataya 3y ago
    Sorry, that's right. For the iPhone probably about 15 years (ie, since not long after it first came out). Edited my previous comment.