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Do you want to control your device or are you okay with someone else controlling it? https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57 https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57

paulcole 3y ago
My iPhone works really well and I generally trust Apple. So I’m 100% fine with someone else controlling it.
- JadeNB 3y ago
  > I generally trust Apple. Why? I can't imagine any kind of real trust relationship except with individual developers or small shops who can be responsive to individual customers. I certainly trust Apple more than Microsoft, but I can't imagine any situation in which I'd say I trusted them (or any other megacorp) in an unqualified sense.
  - askafriend 3y ago
    I have a 20+ year relationship with them as a company that informs my trust with their products and services.
  - willis936 3y ago
    Companies earn trust by being honest and consistent for long enough. I trusted Apple until recently. They lied to me several times over the phone over several weeks (always in a very courteous and professional way). Such a small thing for them to throw away trust for. I had been slowly moving into their ecosystem and I'm now pulling out. Pixel 6 google edition can be found for ~$200 and can be loaded up with de-googled Android ROMs (Calyx, Graphene, others).
    - ghostpepper 3y ago
      What did they lie about?
      - willis936 3y ago
        They told me that they had issued a refund for an order that UPS had failed to deliver when they had not. I called four times 7 days apart and was told each time that the refund was processing and would show up within 3-5 business days. When they did finally issue a refund it was for only half the order. I requested a chargeback from my bank and at this point they are siding with Apple. Not really sure why I keep money in a bank or use credit cards.
  - NoboruWataya 3y ago
    Flipping the question around, what exactly are you worried they will do? I'm on your "side" on this in that I dislike closed ecosystems, spyware and not having control over my own devices. But I am not in tech and the vast majority of people I know don't care about this and likely never will, and every year that goes by without Apple remotely bricking their phone with no recourse only strengthens their apathy. Trust doesn't have to be unqualified. You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world.
    - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
      >> "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world. It is not a false dichotomy: Apple controls who gets to use iPhones and what they get to do on iPhones. Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? >> You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. Yes, but for how long and under what conditions? How willing are people to change when they are locked-in to the Apple ecosystem?
      - NoboruWataya 3y ago
        > Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? > Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? These are not restrictions that are likely to be relevant to the people I am talking about. You will ask me how I know. The statement is forward looking so obviously I can't prove it, but I know people who have happily been using iPhones for 15+ years without ever giving a thought to these questions. (I know that because I've had this same conversation with some of them.) In the meantime, these people can go where they want, do what they want, say what they want, etc etc. They are not, in any real sense, being controlled by the software on their iPhone. If you live in the first world, pay your bills, are not a criminal and your phone usage is mostly limited to Instagram and WhatsApp, the likelihood of your Apple account being shut down without warning or recourse is very small. So for such people, the risk is too remote to dedicate much thought to.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    Why not? I’ve been using their products and services with essentially no issues for 20+ years.
    - JadeNB 3y ago
      > Why not? I’ve been using their products and services with essentially no issues for 20+ years. That's exactly my problem—for a small company that is responsive to individual users, I could build on that trust and have some confidence that it might continue. For Apple, they don't care about my trust at all; so, if there is something that they want to do that will harm me personally, then they have no reason not to do it as long as it will not negatively affect their standing with most of their customer base. It doesn't matter how many years their interests have aligned with mine; if our interests diverge tomorrow, then, not only will they go with theirs, they won't even consider mine.
      - paulcole 3y ago
        > It doesn't matter how many years their interests have aligned with mine; if our interests diverge tomorrow, then, not only will they go with theirs, they won't even consider mine. If you think the small companies are any different, you’re delusional. Everybody’s in it for themselves. But, that’s fine with me. I just think the odds of that are low based on Apple’s track record of 20+ years.
- thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
  >> My iPhone works really well and I generally trust Apple. So I’m 100% fine with someone else controlling it. The reality is that most people are choosing to let Apple or Google control their mobile devices. From what I have read, most free / libre smartphones are not ready for consumer use. Are there are any "good enough for grandma" libre smartphones?
  - mwint 3y ago
    One of my “good enough for Grandma” criteria is that she can’t click on a link in a Facebook post promising nine million Candy Crush points for installing an exfiltrate-all-the-data app from some App Store alternative.
  - paulcole 3y ago
    > From what I have read, most free / libre smartphones are not ready for consumer use Replace “most” with “all” and you’re closer to the truth. Huge amounts of copium from anyone who thinks otherwise.
wolfendin 3y ago
After my phone was stolen (it went missing after a move and it was renamed) and I was able to to remote wipe and disable it, I am 100% okay with it.

paulcole 3y ago

My iPhone works really well and I generally trust Apple. So I’m 100% fine with someone else controlling it.

JadeNB 3y ago
> I generally trust Apple. Why? I can't imagine any kind of real trust relationship except with individual developers or small shops who can be responsive to individual customers. I certainly trust Apple more than Microsoft, but I can't imagine any situation in which I'd say I trusted them (or any other megacorp) in an unqualified sense.
- askafriend 3y ago
  I have a 20+ year relationship with them as a company that informs my trust with their products and services.
- willis936 3y ago
  Companies earn trust by being honest and consistent for long enough. I trusted Apple until recently. They lied to me several times over the phone over several weeks (always in a very courteous and professional way). Such a small thing for them to throw away trust for. I had been slowly moving into their ecosystem and I'm now pulling out. Pixel 6 google edition can be found for ~$200 and can be loaded up with de-googled Android ROMs (Calyx, Graphene, others).
  - ghostpepper 3y ago
    What did they lie about?
    - willis936 3y ago
      They told me that they had issued a refund for an order that UPS had failed to deliver when they had not. I called four times 7 days apart and was told each time that the refund was processing and would show up within 3-5 business days. When they did finally issue a refund it was for only half the order. I requested a chargeback from my bank and at this point they are siding with Apple. Not really sure why I keep money in a bank or use credit cards.
- NoboruWataya 3y ago
  Flipping the question around, what exactly are you worried they will do? I'm on your "side" on this in that I dislike closed ecosystems, spyware and not having control over my own devices. But I am not in tech and the vast majority of people I know don't care about this and likely never will, and every year that goes by without Apple remotely bricking their phone with no recourse only strengthens their apathy. Trust doesn't have to be unqualified. You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world.
  - thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
    >> "The user controls the program or the program controls the user" is a false dichotomy to people who spend most of their time in the real world. It is not a false dichotomy: Apple controls who gets to use iPhones and what they get to do on iPhones. Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? >> You can accept that Apple's incentives don't align perfectly with yours while being comfortable that they align enough that Apple will provide you with the service you're looking for. Yes, but for how long and under what conditions? How willing are people to change when they are locked-in to the Apple ecosystem?
    - NoboruWataya 3y ago
      > Can someone use an iPhone without an Apple account? If Apple were to lock or ban a user's Apple account, what could the user do about it? > Can someone run arbitrary software of their choice on an iPhone? These are not restrictions that are likely to be relevant to the people I am talking about. You will ask me how I know. The statement is forward looking so obviously I can't prove it, but I know people who have happily been using iPhones for 15+ years without ever giving a thought to these questions. (I know that because I've had this same conversation with some of them.) In the meantime, these people can go where they want, do what they want, say what they want, etc etc. They are not, in any real sense, being controlled by the software on their iPhone. If you live in the first world, pay your bills, are not a criminal and your phone usage is mostly limited to Instagram and WhatsApp, the likelihood of your Apple account being shut down without warning or recourse is very small. So for such people, the risk is too remote to dedicate much thought to.
- paulcole 3y ago
  Why not? I’ve been using their products and services with essentially no issues for 20+ years.
  - JadeNB 3y ago
    > Why not? I’ve been using their products and services with essentially no issues for 20+ years. That's exactly my problem—for a small company that is responsive to individual users, I could build on that trust and have some confidence that it might continue. For Apple, they don't care about my trust at all; so, if there is something that they want to do that will harm me personally, then they have no reason not to do it as long as it will not negatively affect their standing with most of their customer base. It doesn't matter how many years their interests have aligned with mine; if our interests diverge tomorrow, then, not only will they go with theirs, they won't even consider mine.
    - paulcole 3y ago
      > It doesn't matter how many years their interests have aligned with mine; if our interests diverge tomorrow, then, not only will they go with theirs, they won't even consider mine. If you think the small companies are any different, you’re delusional. Everybody’s in it for themselves. But, that’s fine with me. I just think the odds of that are low based on Apple’s track record of 20+ years.
thesuperbigfrog 3y ago
>> My iPhone works really well and I generally trust Apple. So I’m 100% fine with someone else controlling it. The reality is that most people are choosing to let Apple or Google control their mobile devices. From what I have read, most free / libre smartphones are not ready for consumer use. Are there are any "good enough for grandma" libre smartphones?
- mwint 3y ago
  One of my “good enough for Grandma” criteria is that she can’t click on a link in a Facebook post promising nine million Candy Crush points for installing an exfiltrate-all-the-data app from some App Store alternative.
- paulcole 3y ago
  > From what I have read, most free / libre smartphones are not ready for consumer use Replace “most” with “all” and you’re closer to the truth. Huge amounts of copium from anyone who thinks otherwise.

wolfendin 3y ago

After my phone was stolen (it went missing after a move and it was renamed) and I was able to to remote wipe and disable it, I am 100% okay with it.