4 ms·

The way I understand it, the tiny speakers in laptops don't sound great. But since sound perception is somewhat relative, manufacturers use DSP to try to improv

The way I understand it, the tiny speakers in laptops don't sound great. But since sound perception is somewhat relative, manufacturers use DSP to try to improve the perception of the sound. Of course, this will never rival an actual "serious" amp and speakers, but it can drastically improve matters. Anecdotally, my HP laptop has a pretty crappy sound under Linux, but under Windows with the Realtek drivers, it sounds OK. The soundcard itself doesn't seem too bad: if I use a pair of nice headphones or plug it into my dedicated stereo, even under Linux I hear no difference compared to using an external DAC connected through USB.

globular-toast 3y ago
But we could already do DSP with Pulseaudio and Pipewire. I guess is making the speakers DSPs "built in" and tweakable with GUI etc? As well as actually creating the speaker DSP profiles, I guess. The speakers safety thing seems like a completely new thing, though. All sounds like an absolute nightmare to anyone even remotely into audio. But I guess tiny speakers are occasionally useful.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  In this, our modern world, tiny speakers are what most people listen to most things on, except maybe in their cars. Phones, laptops, tablets. The tiny speakers built into TVs, much smaller than even built-in speakers on CRT TVs used to be. Ear buds of various sorts, and smallish headphones. That’s most audio-listening accounted for (except in cars). Hell, I’ve got a good hi-fi setup and (separately) a probably-top-couple-percent 7.2 home theater audio situation (in one room… but not on the other TV) and even so I listen to things on tiny speakers more than on big ones.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > In this, our modern world, tiny speakers are what most people listen to most things on, except maybe in their cars. Hmm... I think you're probably right, but the one thing that gives me pause is the enormous market for Bluetooth speakers. I see Bluetooth speakers everywhere! I suppose most Bluetooth speakers are still "small" in the grand scheme of things, but they're certainly larger than phone and laptop speakers. Earbuds are similarly omnipresent. I'm not sure it's accurate to classify those as "tiny speakers"; the physics are different, because they only need to be loud enough to hear when they're next to your ears.
    - johnwalkr 3y ago
      Good bluetooth speakers also use similar DSP to sound way better and louder than they would without it so I am not sure this is a counterpoint. The unique thing here is Apple does it on the main CPU, presumably because "why not", so you couldn't safely power the speakers of your mac while running linux until the related features were added.
      - sethhochberg 3y ago
        At this point even "bigger" speakers make heavy use of DSP, too - from household commodities like Sonos to higher end hi-fi powered speakers like the KEF LSX series, almost everyone in the industry making an active-amplified product has wised up to the idea that some processing can make use of clever acoustic tricks or compensations to make their products sound better (by whatever definition of better their brand sells) than they would being drive flat from the source. When you provide the whole integrated package its a no brainer.
- bzzzt 3y ago
  You're right that you can do DSP everywhere, but if you implement this in user space you give everybody rights to damage the speaker. It's not only useful for tiny speakers: everything from home audio to big PA installations for concert halls can benefit from DSP optimisations. It's a way to squeeze more sound from the same speakers.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I do use DSP under Linux with easyeffects. I found a preset called "Laptop Unsuck" which works ok-ish, but I can't find the original URL after a quick search. It works OK for my needs, but easyeffects does add some latency, which isn't great for videoconferencing for example. However, most people will probably not go out of their way to use this, and also, having a DSP tailored to the specific speakers and enclosure is nice. But I agree there should be a way to completely disable this, at least when using the line out jack, be it for headphones or an external audio system. > But I guess tiny speakers are occasionally useful. They are to me. My laptop is much easier to carry on planes than my audio system, and I don't always like having headphones on, for example when watching a movie in bed.
  - Wowfunhappy 3y ago
    > But I agree there should be a way to completely disable this, at least when using the line out jack, be it for headphones or an external audio system. According to Marcan on mastodon, the DSP is only enabled when you use the internal speakers.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  I think it's supposed to be a kind of in-kernel equivalent to Pulseaudio and Pipewire, meant to keep the sound output below the limit where it would risk blowing the speakers. That's a nice idea, and you could even pick a cool name for it, like Advanced Linux Sound Architecture. It could even support things like the hardware mixing channels, filter chains, sample-based synthesizers etc. that some soundcards have, instead of leaving it all to software.
- Aeolos 3y ago
  Compensating physical limitations to create a neutral sounds profile is useful regardless of the size of the speaker. I have a custom-made subwoofer that can hit 12Hz (measured), and creating a DSP profile to compensate for my room + speaker acoustics has significantly improved the listening experience.[1][2] [1] https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/beocreate-4-channel-amplifier/ https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/beocreate-4-channel-am... [2] https://github.com/hifiberry/hifiberry-dsp/blob/master/doc/rew-basics.md https://github.com/hifiberry/hifiberry-dsp/blob/master/doc/r...
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Is this more than just EQ? I think AVRs do some latency compensation too, although that's probably only a problem in multi-channel set ups.
    - Aeolos 3y ago
      It's primarily EQ calibrated via a frequency sweep of the room + speaker acoustics. The hifiberry DSP does primarily three things: - equalization for speaker + room acoustics - customizable crossover frequency for speakers (in my case a 2.1 setup) - loudness equalization across speakers There may be a latency compensation module, but that's not something I needed in my case. None of this is rocket science, but audio does sound significantly better after compensation. Specifically, my living room geometry was causing standing waves in the ~200 Hz range, making the low-end sound unpleasantly boomy. The calibrated compensation pretty much eliminated this, without needing to invest in physical sound traps and the like. This is a fun little project for really not much money. I recommend it to everyone who likes tinkering, all you need is a <$100 measurement mic, REW, and a tiny bit of patience.
      - globular-toast 3y ago
        If your standing waves mean you only need to attenuate frequencies with EQ then you're very lucky! A standing wave means there will be some parts of the room that are too loud (antinodes) and some that are too quiet (nodes). Bass traps are to eliminate standing waves such that you won't have this variance around the room. The bigger problem is when your sitting position is in a node meaning you will completely lose a bass frequency. You can't EQ that back. EQing out bass if you sit in an antinode is definitely better than nothing, though.

globular-toast 3y ago

But we could already do DSP with Pulseaudio and Pipewire. I guess is making the speakers DSPs "built in" and tweakable with GUI etc? As well as actually creating the speaker DSP profiles, I guess. The speakers safety thing seems like a completely new thing, though. All sounds like an absolute nightmare to anyone even remotely into audio. But I guess tiny speakers are occasionally useful.

hotnfresh 3y ago
In this, our modern world, tiny speakers are what most people listen to most things on, except maybe in their cars. Phones, laptops, tablets. The tiny speakers built into TVs, much smaller than even built-in speakers on CRT TVs used to be. Ear buds of various sorts, and smallish headphones. That’s most audio-listening accounted for (except in cars). Hell, I’ve got a good hi-fi setup and (separately) a probably-top-couple-percent 7.2 home theater audio situation (in one room… but not on the other TV) and even so I listen to things on tiny speakers more than on big ones.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > In this, our modern world, tiny speakers are what most people listen to most things on, except maybe in their cars. Hmm... I think you're probably right, but the one thing that gives me pause is the enormous market for Bluetooth speakers. I see Bluetooth speakers everywhere! I suppose most Bluetooth speakers are still "small" in the grand scheme of things, but they're certainly larger than phone and laptop speakers. Earbuds are similarly omnipresent. I'm not sure it's accurate to classify those as "tiny speakers"; the physics are different, because they only need to be loud enough to hear when they're next to your ears.
  - johnwalkr 3y ago
    Good bluetooth speakers also use similar DSP to sound way better and louder than they would without it so I am not sure this is a counterpoint. The unique thing here is Apple does it on the main CPU, presumably because "why not", so you couldn't safely power the speakers of your mac while running linux until the related features were added.
    - sethhochberg 3y ago
      At this point even "bigger" speakers make heavy use of DSP, too - from household commodities like Sonos to higher end hi-fi powered speakers like the KEF LSX series, almost everyone in the industry making an active-amplified product has wised up to the idea that some processing can make use of clever acoustic tricks or compensations to make their products sound better (by whatever definition of better their brand sells) than they would being drive flat from the source. When you provide the whole integrated package its a no brainer.
bzzzt 3y ago
You're right that you can do DSP everywhere, but if you implement this in user space you give everybody rights to damage the speaker. It's not only useful for tiny speakers: everything from home audio to big PA installations for concert halls can benefit from DSP optimisations. It's a way to squeeze more sound from the same speakers.
vladvasiliu 3y ago
I do use DSP under Linux with easyeffects. I found a preset called "Laptop Unsuck" which works ok-ish, but I can't find the original URL after a quick search. It works OK for my needs, but easyeffects does add some latency, which isn't great for videoconferencing for example. However, most people will probably not go out of their way to use this, and also, having a DSP tailored to the specific speakers and enclosure is nice. But I agree there should be a way to completely disable this, at least when using the line out jack, be it for headphones or an external audio system. > But I guess tiny speakers are occasionally useful. They are to me. My laptop is much easier to carry on planes than my audio system, and I don't always like having headphones on, for example when watching a movie in bed.
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  > But I agree there should be a way to completely disable this, at least when using the line out jack, be it for headphones or an external audio system. According to Marcan on mastodon, the DSP is only enabled when you use the internal speakers.
zozbot234 3y ago
I think it's supposed to be a kind of in-kernel equivalent to Pulseaudio and Pipewire, meant to keep the sound output below the limit where it would risk blowing the speakers. That's a nice idea, and you could even pick a cool name for it, like Advanced Linux Sound Architecture. It could even support things like the hardware mixing channels, filter chains, sample-based synthesizers etc. that some soundcards have, instead of leaving it all to software.
Aeolos 3y ago
Compensating physical limitations to create a neutral sounds profile is useful regardless of the size of the speaker. I have a custom-made subwoofer that can hit 12Hz (measured), and creating a DSP profile to compensate for my room + speaker acoustics has significantly improved the listening experience.[1][2] [1] https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/beocreate-4-channel-amplifier/ https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/boards/beocreate-4-channel-am... [2] https://github.com/hifiberry/hifiberry-dsp/blob/master/doc/rew-basics.md https://github.com/hifiberry/hifiberry-dsp/blob/master/doc/r...
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Is this more than just EQ? I think AVRs do some latency compensation too, although that's probably only a problem in multi-channel set ups.
  - Aeolos 3y ago
    It's primarily EQ calibrated via a frequency sweep of the room + speaker acoustics. The hifiberry DSP does primarily three things: - equalization for speaker + room acoustics - customizable crossover frequency for speakers (in my case a 2.1 setup) - loudness equalization across speakers There may be a latency compensation module, but that's not something I needed in my case. None of this is rocket science, but audio does sound significantly better after compensation. Specifically, my living room geometry was causing standing waves in the ~200 Hz range, making the low-end sound unpleasantly boomy. The calibrated compensation pretty much eliminated this, without needing to invest in physical sound traps and the like. This is a fun little project for really not much money. I recommend it to everyone who likes tinkering, all you need is a <$100 measurement mic, REW, and a tiny bit of patience.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      If your standing waves mean you only need to attenuate frequencies with EQ then you're very lucky! A standing wave means there will be some parts of the room that are too loud (antinodes) and some that are too quiet (nodes). Bass traps are to eliminate standing waves such that you won't have this variance around the room. The bigger problem is when your sitting position is in a node meaning you will completely lose a bass frequency. You can't EQ that back. EQing out bass if you sit in an antinode is definitely better than nothing, though.