5 ms·

Anecdotal, but back in those "good old days" when you could get a screen replaced in 5 mins like this article said, on the three occasions I did this I ended up

by emmet 3y ago

Anecdotal, but back in those "good old days" when you could get a screen replaced in 5 mins like this article said, on the three occasions I did this I ended up with the worst cheap Chinese knock off screens I have ever seen, the last time I ended up spending even more to get a genuine one. Hard to avoid this with small businesses when they need to make the enough of a margin at those cheaper retail prices. I'm sure this is fine for a lot of people, but I'm much happier to pay for AppleCare+ and get components that keep the experience that I've paid a grand for.

vasdae 3y ago
Of course they don't use the same quality screens, because then the replacement would cost as much as it does in an apple store.
- emmet 3y ago
  Sorry yeah that was my point. I personally don't find value in the cost saving.
ponorin 3y ago
in your case you got screwed up bc you got a bad part, but you're saying your solution to that is to screw everyone by disallowing even genuine parts for repair not blessed by apple?
- emmet 3y ago
  Didn't say that! Just that my past experience with 3rd party repair has been poor
  - sigmar 3y ago
    Wasn't this partly by Apple's own making? Apple shreds devices to prevent people from salvaging parts for repairs[1], even phones that were usable[2]. and hasn't sold genuine components until very recently. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-geep-iphone-recycle-shred/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g...
    - jwells89 3y ago
      Use of knockoff parts will occur no matter what Apple does because those parts are always going to be cheaper. That said, I think maybe the solution may be closer to something like allowing fake parts to function when placed in iPhones, with a couple of caveats: - A prominent top level section in Settings appears listing all non-genuine parts - When the phone has been factory reset, an alert appears at the bottom of the “welcome” screen and can be tapped to view the same list as above, so any prospective buyers of the device know exactly what they’re buying (and hopefully, can negotiate a better price as a result) This addresses the cases of both dishonest shops and dishonest sellers trying to pass off the used devices they’re selling as fully genuine. As for parts in used phones, I think those should remain device-locked until the user has explicitly unlocked them with a process that requires a second confirmation from the user after a week with a code sent by snail mail so thieves can’t coerce victims into part unlocking.
      - mindslight 3y ago
        The auto repair industry has been getting along just fine with aftermarket parts in the mix. As a customer you have a choice, and need to be aware that the choice exists to competently engage with the market. Being slightly informed about the high level aspects of an industry you're interacting with is just part of being an adult. If you don't want to have a frank conversation with a repair shop about which aftermarket parts are adequate and which are less than ideal, then you can always overpay for the whole job at a dealership to avoid breaking the illusion. From what I understand, getting to this point has been a long fought battle of pushing manufacturers to open up parts availability and basic documentation (which continues to this day with Automotive Right to Repair and whatnot), Magnuson-Moss on the legal front, etc. Apple is at the early stages of its industry, and due to the power of digital restrictions technology has delusions of completely shutting out the third party ecosystem. But in a free society there's only one way for this topic to evolve, and so the authoritarian arguments about the guarantees of centralized control aren't particularly compelling.
        jwells89 3y ago
        The question is, how do we go about making sure that the general public as a whole is aware of the choice? For phones it seems like more of an uphill battle because people generally don’t think a whole lot about the quality of the parts going into their electronics repairs and the quality of the repair work itself until they’ve had some kind of disaster (phone catching on fire or something), whereas it’s more of a consideration for cars (perhaps due to the price difference or obvious mechanical nature of cars). At the very least though, I do think that buyers of used phones deserve to know what kind of parts were used in repairs. On cars this can be verified by looking up the car’s service records and taking it to a trusted mechanic prior to purchase but it’s not so simple with phones, which is where I think it could be useful for the OS to indicate use of aftermarket parts.
cameronh90 3y ago
One of the reasons I switched to iPhone was that Google only does their repairs here through third parties. Even though it was with official parts, the repair quality was never great and it often needed to be manually calibrated or go in for another repair to fix the things they broke in the first repair. My experience (YMMV!) with AppleCare has always been stellar.
- tekchip 3y ago
  YMMV indeed. How does it go for folks who buy a device second hand, beyond apple care, perhaps because they can't afford Apple's first hand prices. No one is saying Apple shouldn't provide Apple care or first rate service within coverage. This is about a broader picture. As noted in the article Apple knows how long Apple care extends for any given device, and if components have been replaced. It would be fairly easy for them (and their gobs of money) to perhaps do something equitable like disable the replaced parts warnings once a device leaves apple care. IMO they shouldn't display those at all but in the interest of equity and compromise I'd settle for removal after Apple has self selected not to "care" about the device anymore.
  - cameronh90 3y ago
    Not really defending it as such, just offering my experience. That being said if I was trying to see it from Apple’s perspective, it does address a lot of problems pretty easily: thieves breaking devices down for parts or coercing users, customers having issues with their devices due to low quality repairs, users buying second hand phones with unofficial parts, various security concerns, etc. Apple do also sell old and refurbished devices also. That being said, I do think Apple should be solving this in a way that allows unofficial repairs, even if that involves taking your ID and proof of purchase into an Apple Store to get your device “unlocked” for free so you can do whatever you want with it, knowing it may hurt the resale value and impact the device’s security. More than that, I think it should be legally required under right to repair legislation.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  In my experience, getting the insurance or whatever for google phones is worth it since they often just replace your phone. I busted a screen and the authorized repair shop broke the mobo trying to replace it. Google replaced my phone but it was an irritating process.
makeitdouble 3y ago
It's interesting you underline the knock off is Chinese, when half of the high quality genuine Apple parts are also Chinese. At this point I'd be more wary of a non Chinese parts for many of the replacements.
- gkanai 3y ago
  There's a significant difference between a Chinese-made Apple OEM part and an aftermarket low-cost Chinese part.
  - elcomet 3y ago
    Which is why it makes no sense to say "Chinese" to mean low quality
    - nottorp 3y ago
      The Chinese will make a part exactly as good as you pay them to make it.
      - makeitdouble 3y ago
        I'm having a hard time trying to find a country with a reputation of consistently underpricing their electronics parts. Perhaps one would do that to get its name on the map as a newcomer, but soon enough investments need to be repaid and the prices would naturally raise up to match the increase in reputation and pad the margins.
    - emmet 3y ago
      Hence my specifying knock off. 3rd party repair shops aren't buying their parts from Belgium or Fiji
Krasnol 3y ago
This is SO WEIRD. I've seen this happen so many times around these discussions on HN: There is a valid argument in the source. There is discussion around the argument. There is some proof, there are political discussions. Etc. everything totally normal. But then there is this ONE comment. Usually just one: Anecdotal evidence to spread FUD. And it's up above all that usually discussion. Where is this coming from? Is this natural behavior of people who are also afraid of the freedom to be able to buy parts elsewhere? Is this advertising?
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  Where is this coming from? My theory --- people have some sort of natural affinity toward cults. Even when it is counter to their own best interests. And Apple is approaching cult status.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  Nah, it’s the kind of experiences you expect in a low-regulation market. You either pay a premium—beyond what would be justified if “defector” manufacturers and vendors weren’t a factor, i.e. if effectively-enforced regulations were mandating a higher quality floor—to a vendor with a good reputation you expect them to want to maintain, or you pay in expertise and time-cost. If you don’t pay in one of those two ways, you probably get screwed. Folks who already possess relevant expertise and have a hobby that looks a lot like the time-cost it takes to achieve the best measured-in-currency outcome in the above, may regard the situation as entirely fine. Folks with enough money not to care that simply paying for a decent product is priced above where it “should” be, also may not care. Everyone else just has to live with a bad situation, and sometimes people who’ve run into that post on HN.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    > Nah, it’s the kind of experiences you expect in a low-regulation market. Nah, it's not. The market for Android devices has been there for years and it works. Sure, you can be screwed over, like in everything in life, but it's not such a common thing that it would make it an equally relevant argument against liberalization. I agree, though: people who can afford premium won't bother. Neither with alternative ways nor with people who can't afford premium. Maybe it's even intended to keep the brand somehow exclusive and special...sad world.
gentleman11 3y ago
> the worst cheap Chinese knock off screens Most of an iPhone is Chinese made
nokya 3y ago
I do not think this is a small business issue, but rather a dishonest small business owner working for disrespectful customers issue. A few months ago, I had to get a screen replacement and straight upfront asked the repair guy how much it would really (emphasized) cost me to get the screen replaced after he gave me a quote indicating that either the screen would cost nothing, or the work hours cost almost nothing. He smiled and admitted getting the original replacement unit would almost double the quote he had just given me, plus I'd have to wait a week until the unit arrives. I told him that's what I wanted. Eventually, the repair cost me a bit more than double what he asked first. But I am satisfied, I noticed no defaults at all on my phone since the repair, it feels exactly like the original model. He cleaned it, and installed a screen protector on it (offered). This is clearly a case of "theory built on one single personal experience", I agree. But honestly, I don't know anyone around me who would agree to pay a bit more just to get better service and I think that's the core issue.
- Tade0 3y ago
  When I called to ask for a quote when the screen on my phone cracked, the repair guy said upfront that it's going to cost more than a used phone of the same model. To that I replied that this is fine, brought the phone, got a loaner free of charge (probably because the guy saw that I came in with a flip phone as replacement) and the next day it was ready for pickup. Honest business, five stars. I think they get rid of a lot of troublesome customers by persuading them to just get a new phone instead.
- jqpabc123 3y ago
  I don't know anyone around me who would agree to pay a bit more just to get better service and I think that's the core issue. The core issue is that Apple has restricted your ability to *choose* to pay less or go elsewhere --- without disclosure or consent.
humphly 3y ago
[flagged]
CivBase 3y ago
Imagine if Apple sold OEM parts at a reasonable price. Imagine if they weren't pairing OEM parts to prevent repair shops from parting out broken devices. Imagine if they weren't making deals with manufacturers to prevent the sale of standard parts to third parties - even parts with no Apple IP like the ISL9240 [0]. Imagine if they weren't abusing Customs and Border Patrol powers to prevent distribution of legitimate parts via false acusations of counterfeiting [1]. Maybe then you could get a good screen from a small repair shop. It's not about margin. It's about parts availability. Apple stores are few and far between, but Apple products are ubiquitous. Official Apple repairs have them ship the device across the country to repair shops, which takes a lot of time. And they don't do things like component-level repair (i.e. specific chips, resistors, and other board components). They just replace the entire board and charge you for the new one. An independent repair shop doesn't have to compete on price. They can compete with fast turnaround, minimal travel, and component-level repairs. Or at least they could if they could get the parts. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0&t=200 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0&t=200 [1] https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-exploit/ https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-ex...
SenAnder 3y ago
Do you assume that Apple would be forbidden from offering repairs, if they stopped locking their hardware from the consumer? This is such a common comment in these kinds of threads: "I'm happy with the choice they've forced on me, therefore the force itself is desirable." Like being happy your prison cell has a nice view.

by emmet 3y ago

vasdae 3y ago

Of course they don't use the same quality screens, because then the replacement would cost as much as it does in an apple store.

emmet 3y ago
Sorry yeah that was my point. I personally don't find value in the cost saving.

ponorin 3y ago

in your case you got screwed up bc you got a bad part, but you're saying your solution to that is to screw everyone by disallowing even genuine parts for repair not blessed by apple?

emmet 3y ago
Didn't say that! Just that my past experience with 3rd party repair has been poor
- sigmar 3y ago
  Wasn't this partly by Apple's own making? Apple shreds devices to prevent people from salvaging parts for repairs[1], even phones that were usable[2]. and hasn't sold genuine components until very recently. [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-geep-iphone-recycle-shred/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g...
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Use of knockoff parts will occur no matter what Apple does because those parts are always going to be cheaper. That said, I think maybe the solution may be closer to something like allowing fake parts to function when placed in iPhones, with a couple of caveats: - A prominent top level section in Settings appears listing all non-genuine parts - When the phone has been factory reset, an alert appears at the bottom of the “welcome” screen and can be tapped to view the same list as above, so any prospective buyers of the device know exactly what they’re buying (and hopefully, can negotiate a better price as a result) This addresses the cases of both dishonest shops and dishonest sellers trying to pass off the used devices they’re selling as fully genuine. As for parts in used phones, I think those should remain device-locked until the user has explicitly unlocked them with a process that requires a second confirmation from the user after a week with a code sent by snail mail so thieves can’t coerce victims into part unlocking.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      The auto repair industry has been getting along just fine with aftermarket parts in the mix. As a customer you have a choice, and need to be aware that the choice exists to competently engage with the market. Being slightly informed about the high level aspects of an industry you're interacting with is just part of being an adult. If you don't want to have a frank conversation with a repair shop about which aftermarket parts are adequate and which are less than ideal, then you can always overpay for the whole job at a dealership to avoid breaking the illusion. From what I understand, getting to this point has been a long fought battle of pushing manufacturers to open up parts availability and basic documentation (which continues to this day with Automotive Right to Repair and whatnot), Magnuson-Moss on the legal front, etc. Apple is at the early stages of its industry, and due to the power of digital restrictions technology has delusions of completely shutting out the third party ecosystem. But in a free society there's only one way for this topic to evolve, and so the authoritarian arguments about the guarantees of centralized control aren't particularly compelling.
      - jwells89 3y ago
        The question is, how do we go about making sure that the general public as a whole is aware of the choice? For phones it seems like more of an uphill battle because people generally don’t think a whole lot about the quality of the parts going into their electronics repairs and the quality of the repair work itself until they’ve had some kind of disaster (phone catching on fire or something), whereas it’s more of a consideration for cars (perhaps due to the price difference or obvious mechanical nature of cars). At the very least though, I do think that buyers of used phones deserve to know what kind of parts were used in repairs. On cars this can be verified by looking up the car’s service records and taking it to a trusted mechanic prior to purchase but it’s not so simple with phones, which is where I think it could be useful for the OS to indicate use of aftermarket parts.

cameronh90 3y ago

One of the reasons I switched to iPhone was that Google only does their repairs here through third parties. Even though it was with official parts, the repair quality was never great and it often needed to be manually calibrated or go in for another repair to fix the things they broke in the first repair. My experience (YMMV!) with AppleCare has always been stellar.

tekchip 3y ago
YMMV indeed. How does it go for folks who buy a device second hand, beyond apple care, perhaps because they can't afford Apple's first hand prices. No one is saying Apple shouldn't provide Apple care or first rate service within coverage. This is about a broader picture. As noted in the article Apple knows how long Apple care extends for any given device, and if components have been replaced. It would be fairly easy for them (and their gobs of money) to perhaps do something equitable like disable the replaced parts warnings once a device leaves apple care. IMO they shouldn't display those at all but in the interest of equity and compromise I'd settle for removal after Apple has self selected not to "care" about the device anymore.
- cameronh90 3y ago
  Not really defending it as such, just offering my experience. That being said if I was trying to see it from Apple’s perspective, it does address a lot of problems pretty easily: thieves breaking devices down for parts or coercing users, customers having issues with their devices due to low quality repairs, users buying second hand phones with unofficial parts, various security concerns, etc. Apple do also sell old and refurbished devices also. That being said, I do think Apple should be solving this in a way that allows unofficial repairs, even if that involves taking your ID and proof of purchase into an Apple Store to get your device “unlocked” for free so you can do whatever you want with it, knowing it may hurt the resale value and impact the device’s security. More than that, I think it should be legally required under right to repair legislation.
wombat-man 3y ago
In my experience, getting the insurance or whatever for google phones is worth it since they often just replace your phone. I busted a screen and the authorized repair shop broke the mobo trying to replace it. Google replaced my phone but it was an irritating process.

makeitdouble 3y ago

It's interesting you underline the knock off is Chinese, when half of the high quality genuine Apple parts are also Chinese. At this point I'd be more wary of a non Chinese parts for many of the replacements.

gkanai 3y ago
There's a significant difference between a Chinese-made Apple OEM part and an aftermarket low-cost Chinese part.
- elcomet 3y ago
  Which is why it makes no sense to say "Chinese" to mean low quality
  - nottorp 3y ago
    The Chinese will make a part exactly as good as you pay them to make it.
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      I'm having a hard time trying to find a country with a reputation of consistently underpricing their electronics parts. Perhaps one would do that to get its name on the map as a newcomer, but soon enough investments need to be repaid and the prices would naturally raise up to match the increase in reputation and pad the margins.
  - emmet 3y ago
    Hence my specifying knock off. 3rd party repair shops aren't buying their parts from Belgium or Fiji

Krasnol 3y ago

This is SO WEIRD. I've seen this happen so many times around these discussions on HN: There is a valid argument in the source. There is discussion around the argument. There is some proof, there are political discussions. Etc. everything totally normal. But then there is this ONE comment. Usually just one: Anecdotal evidence to spread FUD. And it's up above all that usually discussion. Where is this coming from? Is this natural behavior of people who are also afraid of the freedom to be able to buy parts elsewhere? Is this advertising?

jqpabc123 3y ago
Where is this coming from? My theory --- people have some sort of natural affinity toward cults. Even when it is counter to their own best interests. And Apple is approaching cult status.
hotnfresh 3y ago
Nah, it’s the kind of experiences you expect in a low-regulation market. You either pay a premium—beyond what would be justified if “defector” manufacturers and vendors weren’t a factor, i.e. if effectively-enforced regulations were mandating a higher quality floor—to a vendor with a good reputation you expect them to want to maintain, or you pay in expertise and time-cost. If you don’t pay in one of those two ways, you probably get screwed. Folks who already possess relevant expertise and have a hobby that looks a lot like the time-cost it takes to achieve the best measured-in-currency outcome in the above, may regard the situation as entirely fine. Folks with enough money not to care that simply paying for a decent product is priced above where it “should” be, also may not care. Everyone else just has to live with a bad situation, and sometimes people who’ve run into that post on HN.
- Krasnol 3y ago
  > Nah, it’s the kind of experiences you expect in a low-regulation market. Nah, it's not. The market for Android devices has been there for years and it works. Sure, you can be screwed over, like in everything in life, but it's not such a common thing that it would make it an equally relevant argument against liberalization. I agree, though: people who can afford premium won't bother. Neither with alternative ways nor with people who can't afford premium. Maybe it's even intended to keep the brand somehow exclusive and special...sad world.

gentleman11 3y ago

> the worst cheap Chinese knock off screens Most of an iPhone is Chinese made

nokya 3y ago

I do not think this is a small business issue, but rather a dishonest small business owner working for disrespectful customers issue. A few months ago, I had to get a screen replacement and straight upfront asked the repair guy how much it would really (emphasized) cost me to get the screen replaced after he gave me a quote indicating that either the screen would cost nothing, or the work hours cost almost nothing. He smiled and admitted getting the original replacement unit would almost double the quote he had just given me, plus I'd have to wait a week until the unit arrives. I told him that's what I wanted. Eventually, the repair cost me a bit more than double what he asked first. But I am satisfied, I noticed no defaults at all on my phone since the repair, it feels exactly like the original model. He cleaned it, and installed a screen protector on it (offered). This is clearly a case of "theory built on one single personal experience", I agree. But honestly, I don't know anyone around me who would agree to pay a bit more just to get better service and I think that's the core issue.

Tade0 3y ago
When I called to ask for a quote when the screen on my phone cracked, the repair guy said upfront that it's going to cost more than a used phone of the same model. To that I replied that this is fine, brought the phone, got a loaner free of charge (probably because the guy saw that I came in with a flip phone as replacement) and the next day it was ready for pickup. Honest business, five stars. I think they get rid of a lot of troublesome customers by persuading them to just get a new phone instead.
jqpabc123 3y ago
I don't know anyone around me who would agree to pay a bit more just to get better service and I think that's the core issue. The core issue is that Apple has restricted your ability to *choose* to pay less or go elsewhere --- without disclosure or consent.

humphly 3y ago

[flagged]

CivBase 3y ago

Imagine if Apple sold OEM parts at a reasonable price. Imagine if they weren't pairing OEM parts to prevent repair shops from parting out broken devices. Imagine if they weren't making deals with manufacturers to prevent the sale of standard parts to third parties - even parts with no Apple IP like the ISL9240 [0]. Imagine if they weren't abusing Customs and Border Patrol powers to prevent distribution of legitimate parts via false acusations of counterfeiting [1]. Maybe then you could get a good screen from a small repair shop. It's not about margin. It's about parts availability. Apple stores are few and far between, but Apple products are ubiquitous. Official Apple repairs have them ship the device across the country to repair shops, which takes a lot of time. And they don't do things like component-level repair (i.e. specific chips, resistors, and other board components). They just replace the entire board and charge you for the new one. An independent repair shop doesn't have to compete on price. They can compete with fast turnaround, minimal travel, and component-level repairs. Or at least they could if they could get the parts. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0&t=200 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0&t=200 [1] https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-exploit/ https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-ex...

SenAnder 3y ago

Do you assume that Apple would be forbidden from offering repairs, if they stopped locking their hardware from the consumer? This is such a common comment in these kinds of threads: "I'm happy with the choice they've forced on me, therefore the force itself is desirable." Like being happy your prison cell has a nice view.