5 ms·

Well, using land to produce feed to ship to CAFOs where animals experience almost nothing but suffering for their short lives is clearly reprehensible. But Geo

by Jedd 3y ago

Well, using land to produce feed to ship to CAFOs where animals experience almost nothing but suffering for their short lives is clearly reprehensible. But George Monbiot quite famously adjusted his position[0] in response to - and since this is a thread about books - one of my favourite works on the subject, 'Meat, A Benign Extravagance' by Simon Fairlie (2010). (My copy was signed by the author when I attended one of his scything weekends.) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-p...

padjo 3y ago
Based on reading that article I think his position is still that we should be eating far less meat than we currently are.
- Jedd 3y ago
  > Based on reading that article ... I reiterate my recommendation of Fairlie's book, which goes into much more detail than George Monbiot's brief article where he responds to same in the Guardian some 13 years ago. I note in that article, however: "If we stopped feeding edible grain to animals, we could still produce around half the current global meat supply with no loss to human nutrition: in fact it's a significant net gain." I guess 'half the current global meat supply' probably is 'far less', as you say.
  - padjo 3y ago
    I think it’s also worth considering what level of meat eating would be sustainable if we extrapolated out to everyone on earth doing it. I think we’re extremely fortunate that vegetarianism is so common in India
    - Jedd 3y ago
      Vegetarianism, but not veganism - there's a LOT of cows in India - about a third of the world's bovine population, give or take. Milk products are obviously a big part of the diet there, and it invites the question 'what are all those cows eating?'. And then some questions like 'How much beef could they be consuming in a similarly sustainable <sic> fashion?'. If you've been to India you'd have noticed cows are everywhere. Frequently just wandering wild along the city and suburban streets. Tangentially, a big part of India being vegetarian is obviously cultural, but I suspect that health or food safety / handling plays a (growing) part. When I travel to India my diet shifts to primarily vegetarian - just to reduce my health risks.
  - Scarblac 3y ago
    I think Monbiit's book argues successfully that it's so hard to grow plants in a way that keeps the soil healthy (as little tilling, added nitrogen, pesticides and herbicides as possible) that there just wouldn't be space for livestock.
    - Jedd 3y ago
      You're describing an integrated food system that, for permaculture practitioners, is considered a mostly solved problem. There's probably lots of examples of people who don't self-label as permaculturists -- Joel Salatin's springs to mind -- who would also assert this is something we demonstrably know how to solve.
      - Scarblac 3y ago
        Permaculture is a piece of the puzzle but I'm not convinced it is cheap enough to be affordable for the poor globally, nor have I seen it work at scale for staple cereals.
        Jedd 3y ago
        Cheap enough? Some of the biggest success stories have been implementations in $-poor environments. There's nothing inherently expensive about the principles of permaculture. As to 'work at scale for staple cereals' I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what permaculture advocates - broadacre cereal crops are definitely NOT on the menu.
        Scarblac 3y ago
        > Cheap enough? > Some of the biggest success stories have been implementations in $-poor environments. So why is it not the dominant method of agriculture yet? > broadacre cereal crops are definitely NOT on the menu. And yet, they're a basic part of most humans' diet. How many people actually get _all_ their food from permaculture? Anyway one of the things Monbiot talks about in his book are new perennial versions of wheat and rice that have decent yields, so maybe they can become part of permaculture.

by Jedd 3y ago

padjo 3y ago

Based on reading that article I think his position is still that we should be eating far less meat than we currently are.

Jedd 3y ago
> Based on reading that article ... I reiterate my recommendation of Fairlie's book, which goes into much more detail than George Monbiot's brief article where he responds to same in the Guardian some 13 years ago. I note in that article, however: "If we stopped feeding edible grain to animals, we could still produce around half the current global meat supply with no loss to human nutrition: in fact it's a significant net gain." I guess 'half the current global meat supply' probably is 'far less', as you say.
- padjo 3y ago
  I think it’s also worth considering what level of meat eating would be sustainable if we extrapolated out to everyone on earth doing it. I think we’re extremely fortunate that vegetarianism is so common in India
  - Jedd 3y ago
    Vegetarianism, but not veganism - there's a LOT of cows in India - about a third of the world's bovine population, give or take. Milk products are obviously a big part of the diet there, and it invites the question 'what are all those cows eating?'. And then some questions like 'How much beef could they be consuming in a similarly sustainable <sic> fashion?'. If you've been to India you'd have noticed cows are everywhere. Frequently just wandering wild along the city and suburban streets. Tangentially, a big part of India being vegetarian is obviously cultural, but I suspect that health or food safety / handling plays a (growing) part. When I travel to India my diet shifts to primarily vegetarian - just to reduce my health risks.
- Scarblac 3y ago
  I think Monbiit's book argues successfully that it's so hard to grow plants in a way that keeps the soil healthy (as little tilling, added nitrogen, pesticides and herbicides as possible) that there just wouldn't be space for livestock.
  - Jedd 3y ago
    You're describing an integrated food system that, for permaculture practitioners, is considered a mostly solved problem. There's probably lots of examples of people who don't self-label as permaculturists -- Joel Salatin's springs to mind -- who would also assert this is something we demonstrably know how to solve.
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      Permaculture is a piece of the puzzle but I'm not convinced it is cheap enough to be affordable for the poor globally, nor have I seen it work at scale for staple cereals.
      - Jedd 3y ago
        Cheap enough? Some of the biggest success stories have been implementations in $-poor environments. There's nothing inherently expensive about the principles of permaculture. As to 'work at scale for staple cereals' I think you are perhaps misunderstanding what permaculture advocates - broadacre cereal crops are definitely NOT on the menu.
        Scarblac 3y ago
        > Cheap enough? > Some of the biggest success stories have been implementations in $-poor environments. So why is it not the dominant method of agriculture yet? > broadacre cereal crops are definitely NOT on the menu. And yet, they're a basic part of most humans' diet. How many people actually get _all_ their food from permaculture? Anyway one of the things Monbiot talks about in his book are new perennial versions of wheat and rice that have decent yields, so maybe they can become part of permaculture.