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_Regenesis_, by George Monbiot. About how we can realistically feed everyone on the planet long term, in a way that doesn't destroy nature, keeps soil healthy

_Regenesis_, by George Monbiot. About how we can realistically feed everyone on the planet long term, in a way that doesn't destroy nature, keeps soil healthy and more able to deal with climate change, and is also affordable. Very good. Very well sourced, sceptical of romantic ideas that just don't scale. Given that we currently use 60% of our agricultural land to feed livestock, that we then use to produce 12% of our calories (and 40% of the land for the other 88%), and that methods of agriculture that leave the ecology healthier have lower yields than current industrial methods, he takes as a given that we'll have to do without most of the livestock.

padjo 3y ago
I really don’t understand how so many smart people don’t understand this and continue to consume animal products regularly.
- sigilis 3y ago
  People still smoke cigarettes despite decades of clear evidence that they will lead to a horrible death in many cases. Society has built so many disincentives to doing so, and yet they persist. Animal products will continue to be consumed no matter how obvious it is that their production is morally repugnant and environmentally destructive. I am sorry to say that I am one of those consumers despite knowing better.
  - padjo 3y ago
    As a former smoker and meat eater I know smoking was far far harder to give up than meat since there is a physical addiction component. Meat eating is just habit and something you can easily enough wean yourself away from.
    - sigilis 3y ago
      It’s on the list of things I want to change about myself. I’m a work in progress. Dietary control is not something I have been able to exercise in the past. I’m attempting to obtain pharmaceutical help on that front, so maybe I will be able to execute on being a better person in that dimension in the coming months.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Cigarette use is plummeting in the west.
    - sigilis 3y ago
      Meat eating should also plummet if meat eating is banned in restaurants and there’s a minimum meat eating age that increases a year at a time. Bonus if there’s a health insurance question about meat eating and special meat taxes. There is no societal structure to disincentivize meat eating. Social pressure from vegetarians (which is so very slight) and logical arguments are the only thing we’ve got. Tradition, convenience, identity, and preferences are all arrayed against the reasonable thing. For now meat consumption is probably going to be somewhat inversely correlated to meat prices, as per usual.
      - padjo 3y ago
        In fairness it has been dropping, eg https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58831636 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58831636 Here’s hoping a tipping point is reached soon
      - Scarblac 3y ago
        I'd expect change to come either from stronger regulation of agriculture that makes it much harder to produce meat, or if that's not introduced, from huge food shortages after desertification and other climate change effects become more pronounced. As long as meat is produced in sufficient quantity and at prices consumers can afford, I don't expect huge change from them.
      - hermitcrab 3y ago
        It is difficult to ban something that has been an integral part of a culture for centuries. But societal attitudes can change quite quickly. For example, homosexuality has gone from being illegal, to being tolerated and now (I think for a lot of people in the UK) pretty much a non-issue in 50 years.
      - AlecSchueler 3y ago
        I think that's what the person above was saying already, just that it's a surprise that many intelligent people still prioritise tradition over the logical arguments.
- officehero 3y ago
  How do you define 'regularly' on a global scale?
  - padjo 3y ago
    I don’t since I really only know about what happens in the west. Here most people seem to eat meat 2-3 times a day, that seems far too frequent to be sustainable. Especially if you consider it immoral to live a lifestyle that couldn’t realistically be sustained if everyone on earth had access to it.
    - hermitcrab 3y ago
      Even in the west it varies a lot. As a vegetarian who recently visited Florida it seems that American eat quite a lot more meat than people in the UK. Case in point - my family wanted to go to a steak house in Florida (they aren't vegetarians) but the one they wanted to go to didn't a single vegetarian item on the huge menu. Even the salads and mac & cheese had bacon added! We didn't go. My local steak house in the UK always has several vegetarian/vegan options.
- Jedd 3y ago
  Well, using land to produce feed to ship to CAFOs where animals experience almost nothing but suffering for their short lives is clearly reprehensible. But George Monbiot quite famously adjusted his position[0] in response to - and since this is a thread about books - one of my favourite works on the subject, 'Meat, A Benign Extravagance' by Simon Fairlie (2010). (My copy was signed by the author when I attended one of his scything weekends.) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-p...
  - padjo 3y ago
    Based on reading that article I think his position is still that we should be eating far less meat than we currently are.
    - Jedd 3y ago
      > Based on reading that article ... I reiterate my recommendation of Fairlie's book, which goes into much more detail than George Monbiot's brief article where he responds to same in the Guardian some 13 years ago. I note in that article, however: "If we stopped feeding edible grain to animals, we could still produce around half the current global meat supply with no loss to human nutrition: in fact it's a significant net gain." I guess 'half the current global meat supply' probably is 'far less', as you say.
      - padjo 3y ago
        I think it’s also worth considering what level of meat eating would be sustainable if we extrapolated out to everyone on earth doing it. I think we’re extremely fortunate that vegetarianism is so common in India
        Jedd 3y ago
        Vegetarianism, but not veganism - there's a LOT of cows in India - about a third of the world's bovine population, give or take. Milk products are obviously a big part of the diet there, and it invites the question 'what are all those cows eating?'. And then some questions like 'How much beef could they be consuming in a similarly sustainable <sic> fashion?'. If you've been to India you'd have noticed cows are everywhere. Frequently just wandering wild along the city and suburban streets. Tangentially, a big part of India being vegetarian is obviously cultural, but I suspect that health or food safety / handling plays a (growing) part. When I travel to India my diet shifts to primarily vegetarian - just to reduce my health risks.
- 1905 3y ago
  My concern is that large corporations will slowly start pushing for taxes and restrictions putting limitations on natural proteins like meat so they can then sell their patented meat sources
TexanFeller 3y ago
Steaks and bacon are some of the few things that make life worth living. I'd rather talk about population control for humans to achieve sustainability(maybe necessary in the end anyway) than deprive ourselves of the joy of a burger.
- indigo0086 3y ago
  You'd rather deprive someone else of a burger then
- Scarblac 3y ago
  That sounds reasonable, as long as it's a choice. It's harsh and ineffecyive to ask people that aren't as attached to burgers to have their population controlled for them. So people should have a choice, either go vegan, or they can enter the giant lottery where 90% gets population controlled by bullet or similar and the other 10% wins the right continue to consume burgers and other animal products the rest of their lives. Or at least, that's what I understand when I read comments like yours. In the meantime, you could try some plant based burgers. They're not a direct replacement but many of them are quite good on their own terms, and there is a huge variety. (90/10 split is a guess)
silexia 3y ago
Farmer here. This is false information - the land used to feed cattle is typically rangeland not capable of supporting other kinds of crops. Further, the cattle manure helps improve the soil.

padjo 3y ago

I really don’t understand how so many smart people don’t understand this and continue to consume animal products regularly.

sigilis 3y ago
People still smoke cigarettes despite decades of clear evidence that they will lead to a horrible death in many cases. Society has built so many disincentives to doing so, and yet they persist. Animal products will continue to be consumed no matter how obvious it is that their production is morally repugnant and environmentally destructive. I am sorry to say that I am one of those consumers despite knowing better.
- padjo 3y ago
  As a former smoker and meat eater I know smoking was far far harder to give up than meat since there is a physical addiction component. Meat eating is just habit and something you can easily enough wean yourself away from.
  - sigilis 3y ago
    It’s on the list of things I want to change about myself. I’m a work in progress. Dietary control is not something I have been able to exercise in the past. I’m attempting to obtain pharmaceutical help on that front, so maybe I will be able to execute on being a better person in that dimension in the coming months.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Cigarette use is plummeting in the west.
  - sigilis 3y ago
    Meat eating should also plummet if meat eating is banned in restaurants and there’s a minimum meat eating age that increases a year at a time. Bonus if there’s a health insurance question about meat eating and special meat taxes. There is no societal structure to disincentivize meat eating. Social pressure from vegetarians (which is so very slight) and logical arguments are the only thing we’ve got. Tradition, convenience, identity, and preferences are all arrayed against the reasonable thing. For now meat consumption is probably going to be somewhat inversely correlated to meat prices, as per usual.
    - padjo 3y ago
      In fairness it has been dropping, eg https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58831636 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-58831636 Here’s hoping a tipping point is reached soon
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      I'd expect change to come either from stronger regulation of agriculture that makes it much harder to produce meat, or if that's not introduced, from huge food shortages after desertification and other climate change effects become more pronounced. As long as meat is produced in sufficient quantity and at prices consumers can afford, I don't expect huge change from them.
    - hermitcrab 3y ago
      It is difficult to ban something that has been an integral part of a culture for centuries. But societal attitudes can change quite quickly. For example, homosexuality has gone from being illegal, to being tolerated and now (I think for a lot of people in the UK) pretty much a non-issue in 50 years.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      I think that's what the person above was saying already, just that it's a surprise that many intelligent people still prioritise tradition over the logical arguments.
officehero 3y ago
How do you define 'regularly' on a global scale?
- padjo 3y ago
  I don’t since I really only know about what happens in the west. Here most people seem to eat meat 2-3 times a day, that seems far too frequent to be sustainable. Especially if you consider it immoral to live a lifestyle that couldn’t realistically be sustained if everyone on earth had access to it.
  - hermitcrab 3y ago
    Even in the west it varies a lot. As a vegetarian who recently visited Florida it seems that American eat quite a lot more meat than people in the UK. Case in point - my family wanted to go to a steak house in Florida (they aren't vegetarians) but the one they wanted to go to didn't a single vegetarian item on the huge menu. Even the salads and mac & cheese had bacon added! We didn't go. My local steak house in the UK always has several vegetarian/vegan options.
Jedd 3y ago
Well, using land to produce feed to ship to CAFOs where animals experience almost nothing but suffering for their short lives is clearly reprehensible. But George Monbiot quite famously adjusted his position[0] in response to - and since this is a thread about books - one of my favourite works on the subject, 'Meat, A Benign Extravagance' by Simon Fairlie (2010). (My copy was signed by the author when I attended one of his scything weekends.) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-p...
- padjo 3y ago
  Based on reading that article I think his position is still that we should be eating far less meat than we currently are.
  - Jedd 3y ago
    > Based on reading that article ... I reiterate my recommendation of Fairlie's book, which goes into much more detail than George Monbiot's brief article where he responds to same in the Guardian some 13 years ago. I note in that article, however: "If we stopped feeding edible grain to animals, we could still produce around half the current global meat supply with no loss to human nutrition: in fact it's a significant net gain." I guess 'half the current global meat supply' probably is 'far less', as you say.
    - padjo 3y ago
      I think it’s also worth considering what level of meat eating would be sustainable if we extrapolated out to everyone on earth doing it. I think we’re extremely fortunate that vegetarianism is so common in India
      - Jedd 3y ago
        Vegetarianism, but not veganism - there's a LOT of cows in India - about a third of the world's bovine population, give or take. Milk products are obviously a big part of the diet there, and it invites the question 'what are all those cows eating?'. And then some questions like 'How much beef could they be consuming in a similarly sustainable <sic> fashion?'. If you've been to India you'd have noticed cows are everywhere. Frequently just wandering wild along the city and suburban streets. Tangentially, a big part of India being vegetarian is obviously cultural, but I suspect that health or food safety / handling plays a (growing) part. When I travel to India my diet shifts to primarily vegetarian - just to reduce my health risks.
1905 3y ago
My concern is that large corporations will slowly start pushing for taxes and restrictions putting limitations on natural proteins like meat so they can then sell their patented meat sources

TexanFeller 3y ago

Steaks and bacon are some of the few things that make life worth living. I'd rather talk about population control for humans to achieve sustainability(maybe necessary in the end anyway) than deprive ourselves of the joy of a burger.

indigo0086 3y ago
You'd rather deprive someone else of a burger then
Scarblac 3y ago
That sounds reasonable, as long as it's a choice. It's harsh and ineffecyive to ask people that aren't as attached to burgers to have their population controlled for them. So people should have a choice, either go vegan, or they can enter the giant lottery where 90% gets population controlled by bullet or similar and the other 10% wins the right continue to consume burgers and other animal products the rest of their lives. Or at least, that's what I understand when I read comments like yours. In the meantime, you could try some plant based burgers. They're not a direct replacement but many of them are quite good on their own terms, and there is a huge variety. (90/10 split is a guess)

silexia 3y ago

Farmer here. This is false information - the land used to feed cattle is typically rangeland not capable of supporting other kinds of crops. Further, the cattle manure helps improve the soil.