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In my case, Fedora became collateral damage after the CentOS/RHEL drama. I've switched all my personal systems to Debian. Fedora is excellent but working with

In my case, Fedora became collateral damage after the CentOS/RHEL drama. I've switched all my personal systems to Debian. Fedora is excellent but working with different systems on my personal computers and the servers is not something I have time for.

eduction 3y ago
I thought about switching for this reason but there is a logic to having different distros for server vs workstation. It’s nice having an up to date emacs and firefox for example, but I don’t expect a server distro to care about that, or a longer term system like Debian to emphasize that. Is your server setup fairly elaborate to the point where it’s tricky to get it right on the workstation? These days I’m mostly just building a jar which is fairly simple. So I don’t feel much impedance mismatch fedora vs deb.
quocanh 3y ago
I think that whole thing was a bit overblown. RHEL is free for individuals. When I need the stability of a server OS, I'd rather just use the real thing.
- mattl 3y ago
  As I understand it, if you exercise your rights to distribute the RHEL source code, Red Hat may terminate your gratis license.
  - ungamedplayer 3y ago
    Link to where this was said by rh?
    - mogwire 3y ago
      It’s in the EULA. They don’t deny it and it’s their right. The problem is RMS and all the people supporting FOSS and the GPL say Red Hat, and any other company, are well with in their rights to have that clause. And this causes people, who didn’t pay for RHEL, won’t pay for Rocky or Alma or any other clone to hate a company they never supported.
      - worthless-trash 3y ago
        https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Red_Hat_GPLv2-Based_EULA_20191118.pdf https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Red_Hat_GPLv2-Based_EULA_201... Are you sure ?
        mogwire 3y ago
        https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20230309.pdf https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20... Unauthorized Use of Subscription Services. Any unauthorized use of the Subscription Services is a material breach of the Agreement. Unauthorized use of the Subscription Services includes: [...] (d) using Subscription Services in connection with any redistribution of Software
        worthless-trash 3y ago
        IANAL but Subscription services in this case abusing Red Hats CDN/Support, not the software.
  - mogwire 3y ago
    Correct because it’s free if you agree to the terms. Amazing concept. It’s like if you let me in your house, let me use your stuff, and then you ask me not to break something and then I break something and you kick me out and I get upset.
    - gtirloni 3y ago
      Bad analogy, but let's go along with it. The open source license already says you can go into the house and do whatever you want, including breaking something and kicking you out. Your additional instruction to not break something goes against the rights initially granted. To make it worse, one is covered by copyright law and the other by business contract law.
theodric 3y ago
After 23 years, I got fed up with Debian's many idiosyncrasies/breakage and decided to try Fedora. It's been a breath of fresh air, and I've been pleasantly surprised how much of the stuff I want which required fiddling or compiling in Debian is just in the repos on Fedora. Unfortunately, unless they've fixed all the bugs that were keeping me off Wayland in F38, I won't be migrating to the reportedly Xorgless F39. Better to have loved and lost...?
- Zetaphor 3y ago
  They're not removing Xorg, they're just making it no longer the default. You're still free to use it though it's getting no official support because Xorg is dead.
  - theodric 3y ago
    Alright, looks like I got bad intel. It's F40 that will drop the X session for KDE[1,2], coinciding with the Plasma 6 plan to phase out X support. I understand GNOME is also planning to drop X. Evidently Nvidia is not being allowed to hold up Wayland progress by the Fedora team anymore [3]. I just wish they'd fix Wayland bugs like the mouse cursor being tiny in Firefox when using UI scaling, or text twitching on screen like my video card is dying, both of which go away in Xorg. I'll find my own way to make XScreenSavers work. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-40-Approves-Plasma-6 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-40-Approves-Plasma-6 [2] https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 [3] https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/please-dont-remove-xorg-yet/92757 https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/please-dont-remove-xo...
  - hollerith 3y ago
    When you logged into a fresh install of Fedora 34, you got a wayland session. To get an X11 session, you needed to choose it in a pull-down menu on the login screen. I.e., It's been at least 2.5 years since Xorg has "been the default".

eduction 3y ago

I thought about switching for this reason but there is a logic to having different distros for server vs workstation. It’s nice having an up to date emacs and firefox for example, but I don’t expect a server distro to care about that, or a longer term system like Debian to emphasize that. Is your server setup fairly elaborate to the point where it’s tricky to get it right on the workstation? These days I’m mostly just building a jar which is fairly simple. So I don’t feel much impedance mismatch fedora vs deb.

quocanh 3y ago

I think that whole thing was a bit overblown. RHEL is free for individuals. When I need the stability of a server OS, I'd rather just use the real thing.

mattl 3y ago
As I understand it, if you exercise your rights to distribute the RHEL source code, Red Hat may terminate your gratis license.
- ungamedplayer 3y ago
  Link to where this was said by rh?
  - mogwire 3y ago
    It’s in the EULA. They don’t deny it and it’s their right. The problem is RMS and all the people supporting FOSS and the GPL say Red Hat, and any other company, are well with in their rights to have that clause. And this causes people, who didn’t pay for RHEL, won’t pay for Rocky or Alma or any other clone to hate a company they never supported.
    - worthless-trash 3y ago
      https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Red_Hat_GPLv2-Based_EULA_20191118.pdf https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Red_Hat_GPLv2-Based_EULA_201... Are you sure ?
      - mogwire 3y ago
        https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20230309.pdf https://www.redhat.com/licenses/Appendix_1_Global_English_20... Unauthorized Use of Subscription Services. Any unauthorized use of the Subscription Services is a material breach of the Agreement. Unauthorized use of the Subscription Services includes: [...] (d) using Subscription Services in connection with any redistribution of Software
        worthless-trash 3y ago
        IANAL but Subscription services in this case abusing Red Hats CDN/Support, not the software.
- mogwire 3y ago
  Correct because it’s free if you agree to the terms. Amazing concept. It’s like if you let me in your house, let me use your stuff, and then you ask me not to break something and then I break something and you kick me out and I get upset.
  - gtirloni 3y ago
    Bad analogy, but let's go along with it. The open source license already says you can go into the house and do whatever you want, including breaking something and kicking you out. Your additional instruction to not break something goes against the rights initially granted. To make it worse, one is covered by copyright law and the other by business contract law.

theodric 3y ago

After 23 years, I got fed up with Debian's many idiosyncrasies/breakage and decided to try Fedora. It's been a breath of fresh air, and I've been pleasantly surprised how much of the stuff I want which required fiddling or compiling in Debian is just in the repos on Fedora. Unfortunately, unless they've fixed all the bugs that were keeping me off Wayland in F38, I won't be migrating to the reportedly Xorgless F39. Better to have loved and lost...?

Zetaphor 3y ago
They're not removing Xorg, they're just making it no longer the default. You're still free to use it though it's getting no official support because Xorg is dead.
- theodric 3y ago
  Alright, looks like I got bad intel. It's F40 that will drop the X session for KDE[1,2], coinciding with the Plasma 6 plan to phase out X support. I understand GNOME is also planning to drop X. Evidently Nvidia is not being allowed to hold up Wayland progress by the Fedora team anymore [3]. I just wish they'd fix Wayland bugs like the mouse cursor being tiny in Firefox when using UI scaling, or text twitching on screen like my video card is dying, both of which go away in Xorg. I'll find my own way to make XScreenSavers work. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-40-Approves-Plasma-6 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Fedora-40-Approves-Plasma-6 [2] https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/395 [3] https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/please-dont-remove-xorg-yet/92757 https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/please-dont-remove-xo...
- hollerith 3y ago
  When you logged into a fresh install of Fedora 34, you got a wayland session. To get an X11 session, you needed to choose it in a pull-down menu on the login screen. I.e., It's been at least 2.5 years since Xorg has "been the default".