5 ms·

it's important to do the research, but this is one of those headlines that any rat owner would say "Yeah, obviously." to without a second thought. They strateg

by serf 3y ago

it's important to do the research, but this is one of those headlines that any rat owner would say "Yeah, obviously." to without a second thought. They strategize, they're mischievous, they test you, and ultimately they're quite cunning. These kind of behaviors are predicated on having an imagination to a certain degree.

INTPenis 3y ago
You don't even have to be a rat owner. I'd say any creature that dreams has an imagination, and dreaming is clearly visible when they're twitching in their sleep. Also just watch Mark Rober's squirrel obstacle course to see how rodents can imagine.
- jbstack 3y ago
  Twitching isn't proof of dreaming.
  - INTPenis 3y ago
    Disclaimer; I'm not a scientist of any biological field. But OP was talking about the common perception of the article. So I chimed in as a pet owner.
- Earw0rm 3y ago
  Something like dreaming is present very far back in evolutionary history. The last common ancestor of ray-finned fish and terrestrial mammals (450 million years ago?) presumably had it, as both branches of the tree of life show REM-like sleep and brain activity.
ImaCake 3y ago
These headlines only work if you are stuck in a behaviouralist view of biology where all animals behave essentially like dumb robots. It was a common view in academia until the 1950s and even later in psychiatry. These days things are much better. No serious animal cognition researcher today should be surprised by rats or mice having imaginations.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  Everyone who owns a dog knows they have intelligence and self-awareness.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Everyone who owns a dog knows they have intelligence and self-awareness To be fair to them, I've occasionally anthropomorphized fish and my Roomba this way.
    - rhombocombus 3y ago
      I wouldn’t sell the fish short either. The more we learn about them the more multitudes we learn they contain.
  - PretzelPirate 3y ago
    I find it interesting how we can be so aware of how dogs and cats are living being who experience life and should be protected, but at the same time, we ignore that cows, chickens, pigs, etc... all have those same experiences. We end up caring about dogs and cats, while paying for the other animals to be killed and torn apart. If the same happened to dogs, people would become violent. It would be nice if people held consistent moral beliefs.
    - Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
      "I care about what I like" is a consistent moral belief. The issue is that people don't realize that that is thier belief and create anlternative beliefs which sound better to them which then become inconsistent.
    - aatd86 3y ago
      The universe recycles itself and has no feelings.
      - gameshot911 3y ago
neom 3y ago
Also if you've ever watched a rat sleep, they very obviously dream.
watmough 3y ago
Funny that this should come up, 30 minutes afer I put our mischief of 3 young girl rats back in their habitat, but yeah, a few concrete examples: * Pudding rat plans escapes to the top of the habitat, whenever the door is open, * Rats are super trainable, and will speculative do tricks for treats (ours get gerber baby puffs, or rice krispies for spinning, going through a hoop, shaking hands etc.) * Pie rat likes loose clothing and will run into sleeves, pants, and general enjoy herself, * Rats also love certain styles of place, depending on the rat, and will happily just chill on your shoulder, or against your tummy, or under an arm and nibble a treat, * Crumble rat is the baby, and more timid, less curious, and prefers to hide, but will run around and climb on the humans if her sisters are doing it. Personality-wise, rats are all across the spectrum, and that personality is visible at weaning when most rats are sold by breeders, and so far it's inherent to the rat, and not something that really changes much. I've not ever noticed them dreaming as ours prefer to snuggle in a hammock, with some rags pulled down, but they clearly have goals, and imagination, not just 'behavior'. Rat's aren't dogs, but a few rats can make a wonderful replacement if you're somewhere where larger pets aren't permitted.
- kawsper 3y ago
  They also have shorter lifespans, so they are not a 10+ year decision and commitment compared to a dog, but that's also a negative :(
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > Pie rat likes loose clothing and will run into sleeves, pants, and general enjoy herself Eeek!
  - watmough 3y ago
    Yeah, and they can be very scratchy. :D me: "(apologetic) A small amount of urine escaped. The rat was not to blame." wife: "(sternly) The rat was *totally* to blame!" Just woken up and seen this after picking up my laptop, but only after feeding the cat, taking dog out to poop, and feeding the rats a few puffs. They are such little characters, full of so much love and joy. Just the short lifespan is the biggest downside. :(

by serf 3y ago

INTPenis 3y ago

You don't even have to be a rat owner. I'd say any creature that dreams has an imagination, and dreaming is clearly visible when they're twitching in their sleep. Also just watch Mark Rober's squirrel obstacle course to see how rodents can imagine.

jbstack 3y ago
Twitching isn't proof of dreaming.
- INTPenis 3y ago
  Disclaimer; I'm not a scientist of any biological field. But OP was talking about the common perception of the article. So I chimed in as a pet owner.
Earw0rm 3y ago
Something like dreaming is present very far back in evolutionary history. The last common ancestor of ray-finned fish and terrestrial mammals (450 million years ago?) presumably had it, as both branches of the tree of life show REM-like sleep and brain activity.

ImaCake 3y ago

These headlines only work if you are stuck in a behaviouralist view of biology where all animals behave essentially like dumb robots. It was a common view in academia until the 1950s and even later in psychiatry. These days things are much better. No serious animal cognition researcher today should be surprised by rats or mice having imaginations.

WalterBright 3y ago
Everyone who owns a dog knows they have intelligence and self-awareness.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Everyone who owns a dog knows they have intelligence and self-awareness To be fair to them, I've occasionally anthropomorphized fish and my Roomba this way.
  - rhombocombus 3y ago
    I wouldn’t sell the fish short either. The more we learn about them the more multitudes we learn they contain.
- PretzelPirate 3y ago
  I find it interesting how we can be so aware of how dogs and cats are living being who experience life and should be protected, but at the same time, we ignore that cows, chickens, pigs, etc... all have those same experiences. We end up caring about dogs and cats, while paying for the other animals to be killed and torn apart. If the same happened to dogs, people would become violent. It would be nice if people held consistent moral beliefs.
  - Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
    "I care about what I like" is a consistent moral belief. The issue is that people don't realize that that is thier belief and create anlternative beliefs which sound better to them which then become inconsistent.
  - aatd86 3y ago
    The universe recycles itself and has no feelings.
    - gameshot911 3y ago

neom 3y ago

Also if you've ever watched a rat sleep, they very obviously dream.

watmough 3y ago

Funny that this should come up, 30 minutes afer I put our mischief of 3 young girl rats back in their habitat, but yeah, a few concrete examples: * Pudding rat plans escapes to the top of the habitat, whenever the door is open, * Rats are super trainable, and will speculative do tricks for treats (ours get gerber baby puffs, or rice krispies for spinning, going through a hoop, shaking hands etc.) * Pie rat likes loose clothing and will run into sleeves, pants, and general enjoy herself, * Rats also love certain styles of place, depending on the rat, and will happily just chill on your shoulder, or against your tummy, or under an arm and nibble a treat, * Crumble rat is the baby, and more timid, less curious, and prefers to hide, but will run around and climb on the humans if her sisters are doing it. Personality-wise, rats are all across the spectrum, and that personality is visible at weaning when most rats are sold by breeders, and so far it's inherent to the rat, and not something that really changes much. I've not ever noticed them dreaming as ours prefer to snuggle in a hammock, with some rags pulled down, but they clearly have goals, and imagination, not just 'behavior'. Rat's aren't dogs, but a few rats can make a wonderful replacement if you're somewhere where larger pets aren't permitted.

kawsper 3y ago
They also have shorter lifespans, so they are not a 10+ year decision and commitment compared to a dog, but that's also a negative :(
WalterBright 3y ago
> Pie rat likes loose clothing and will run into sleeves, pants, and general enjoy herself Eeek!
- watmough 3y ago
  Yeah, and they can be very scratchy. :D me: "(apologetic) A small amount of urine escaped. The rat was not to blame." wife: "(sternly) The rat was *totally* to blame!" Just woken up and seen this after picking up my laptop, but only after feeding the cat, taking dog out to poop, and feeding the rats a few puffs. They are such little characters, full of so much love and joy. Just the short lifespan is the biggest downside. :(