4 ms·

Just a minor off topic pet peeve of mine, but why not keep calling the language that Persians speak "Persian" in English? Just how it doesn't feel entirely righ

Just a minor off topic pet peeve of mine, but why not keep calling the language that Persians speak "Persian" in English? Just how it doesn't feel entirely right to suddenly start calling Spanish "Español" instead in English, or Swedish as "Svenska" and so on. I've met so many people not realizing the endonym "farsi" is just a (for some reason) new word in English used for the already well established name for the Persian language

tomwheeler 3y ago
Not all countries where Spanish is spoken call it Español. In many countries, notably including Spain itself, it is called Castellano (Castillian). There are several other (mostly related) languages also spoken in Spain, such as Galician or Catalan. "Spanish language" can be a bit imprecise because it could mean different things in different contexts.
animal_spirits 3y ago
I have only ever heard of the language referred to as Farsi in English. We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican.
- xcdzvyn 3y ago
  Funnily enough it's called Spanish because it's from Spain.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican In the same way that we use “French” for the language spoken by the Quebecois as well as that spoken by the French, we use “Spanish” for the one spoken by Mexicans as well as that spoken by the Spanish, sure. (Same as we use “English” for the language spoken by Americans as well as the one spoken by people in England.) But that's not what’s going on with Farsi.
- FabHK 3y ago
  Yes, because they speak Spanish. But you call it Spanish, not "Español". That's the point. There are perfectly fine English words for what the Spanish call "Español" ("Spanish"), and what the Germans call "Deutsch" ("German"), and what the Indonesians call "Bahasa Indonesia" ("Indonesian"), and what the French call "Français" ("French"), and what the Chinese call "普通话" ("Mandarin"), and what the Persians call "Farsi" ("Persian").
eganist 3y ago
Farsi is solely the name of the language. Persian could describe the language or a number of other things, such as the culture, the people, etc. Farsi and Persian are interchangable in the context of the language, and plenty of Persian Americans prefer using "Persian" to name the language rather than Farsi (this is especially common among persians who refer to themselves as "Persian," and I think a lot of it is because "Farsi" is associated with "Iranian" which has a less ideal connotation associated with it in the West today). But it's not universal, and both are pretty widely accepted. That's my understanding. I'm not versed in the historical details though. There's probably a Persian culture professor lurking who can offer a more informed answer.
yen223 3y ago
I've only ever known the language as being called "Farsi". I don't think I've ever heard the language being called "Persian".
crazygringo 3y ago
That's a very interesting question. I've only ever heard it referred to as Farsi, so I didn't even know there was another option. Intriguingly, Wikipedia provides plenty of information, which seems to support your position (italics mine): "Farsi, which is the Persian word for the Persian language, has also been used widely in English in recent decades, more often to refer to Iran's standard Persian. However, the name Persian is still more widely used. The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has maintained that the endonym Farsi is to be avoided in foreign languages, and that Persian is the appropriate designation of the language in English, as it has the longer tradition in western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity. Iranian historian and linguist Ehsan Yarshater, founder of the Encyclopædia Iranica and Columbia University's Center for Iranian Studies, mentions the same concern in an academic journal on Iranology, rejecting the use of Farsi in foreign languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#Name
- junofan 3y ago
  It’s part of our overseas propaganda efforts to use American linguistic hegemony to void cultural and historical ties with countries we aren’t friends with. The language is Persian, not Farsi.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    I guess only the Italians and the Russians have American friendship. French in French = Francais German in German = Deutsch Spanish in Spanish = Espanola Dutch in Dutch = Nederlands (old name: Diets, I might add) Irish in Irish = Gaelic (actually kind-of refers to 2 languages, but ...) Swedish in Swedish = Svenska Norwegian in Norwegian = Norsk Finnish in Finnish = Suomalainen (Note: most of these have various accents and special characters that aren't correctly typed here, as well as a bunch of nuances that really should be there)
    - paddez 3y ago
      Irish in Irish is Gaeilge, not Gaelic. Gaelic is an English word for a family of languages which Gaeilge belongs to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic
paledot 3y ago
I would be quite happy if we had a word for the language of France that was distinct from the adjective. It's not uncommon that I need to pause and clarify (typically "French people", that is, native francophones vs. residents of France). Not sure why more ambiguity is to be sought after.
- Liquid_Fire 3y ago
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I would never interpret "French people" to mean anything other than people from France (not necessarily resident in France though). If we're referring to language then it would be something like "French speakers", or "native French speakers" if you want to be specific.
  - simbolit 3y ago
    He meant "French" primarily means "French people" and only secondarily "French language". I'd try to distinguish this with a definite article, like "the French" vs "French", but what do I know?
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zeristor 3y ago
The irony. I am a bit indignant at having to call English British English, why isn’t it English English; to differentiate it from American English, decorated with a little US flag as a visual guide.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  To include English as spoken in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, etc. “Celtic archipelago English” is a mouthful, although it would be more accurate when including Ireland.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Seriously. OP doesn't seem to realize that someone in Ireland may also be a "bit indignant" at suggesting it's merely "English" English. British English means it's English as written in the British Isles.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      Someone in Ireland may reasonably also have a problem with “British Isles”, but that’s harder to fix.
Penyngton 3y ago
Here's a link you can use to explain the topic to people who make this mistake: https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/persian_not_farsi.htm https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/persian_not_farsi.h...

tomwheeler 3y ago

Not all countries where Spanish is spoken call it Español. In many countries, notably including Spain itself, it is called Castellano (Castillian). There are several other (mostly related) languages also spoken in Spain, such as Galician or Catalan. "Spanish language" can be a bit imprecise because it could mean different things in different contexts.

animal_spirits 3y ago

I have only ever heard of the language referred to as Farsi in English. We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican.

xcdzvyn 3y ago
Funnily enough it's called Spanish because it's from Spain.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican In the same way that we use “French” for the language spoken by the Quebecois as well as that spoken by the French, we use “Spanish” for the one spoken by Mexicans as well as that spoken by the Spanish, sure. (Same as we use “English” for the language spoken by Americans as well as the one spoken by people in England.) But that's not what’s going on with Farsi.
FabHK 3y ago
Yes, because they speak Spanish. But you call it Spanish, not "Español". That's the point. There are perfectly fine English words for what the Spanish call "Español" ("Spanish"), and what the Germans call "Deutsch" ("German"), and what the Indonesians call "Bahasa Indonesia" ("Indonesian"), and what the French call "Français" ("French"), and what the Chinese call "普通话" ("Mandarin"), and what the Persians call "Farsi" ("Persian").

eganist 3y ago

Farsi is solely the name of the language. Persian could describe the language or a number of other things, such as the culture, the people, etc. Farsi and Persian are interchangable in the context of the language, and plenty of Persian Americans prefer using "Persian" to name the language rather than Farsi (this is especially common among persians who refer to themselves as "Persian," and I think a lot of it is because "Farsi" is associated with "Iranian" which has a less ideal connotation associated with it in the West today). But it's not universal, and both are pretty widely accepted. That's my understanding. I'm not versed in the historical details though. There's probably a Persian culture professor lurking who can offer a more informed answer.

yen223 3y ago

I've only ever known the language as being called "Farsi". I don't think I've ever heard the language being called "Persian".

crazygringo 3y ago

That's a very interesting question. I've only ever heard it referred to as Farsi, so I didn't even know there was another option. Intriguingly, Wikipedia provides plenty of information, which seems to support your position (italics mine): "Farsi, which is the Persian word for the Persian language, has also been used widely in English in recent decades, more often to refer to Iran's standard Persian. However, the name Persian is still more widely used. The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has maintained that the endonym Farsi is to be avoided in foreign languages, and that Persian is the appropriate designation of the language in English, as it has the longer tradition in western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity. Iranian historian and linguist Ehsan Yarshater, founder of the Encyclopædia Iranica and Columbia University's Center for Iranian Studies, mentions the same concern in an academic journal on Iranology, rejecting the use of Farsi in foreign languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#Name

junofan 3y ago
It’s part of our overseas propaganda efforts to use American linguistic hegemony to void cultural and historical ties with countries we aren’t friends with. The language is Persian, not Farsi.
- candiodari 3y ago
  I guess only the Italians and the Russians have American friendship. French in French = Francais German in German = Deutsch Spanish in Spanish = Espanola Dutch in Dutch = Nederlands (old name: Diets, I might add) Irish in Irish = Gaelic (actually kind-of refers to 2 languages, but ...) Swedish in Swedish = Svenska Norwegian in Norwegian = Norsk Finnish in Finnish = Suomalainen (Note: most of these have various accents and special characters that aren't correctly typed here, as well as a bunch of nuances that really should be there)
  - paddez 3y ago
    Irish in Irish is Gaeilge, not Gaelic. Gaelic is an English word for a family of languages which Gaeilge belongs to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic

paledot 3y ago

I would be quite happy if we had a word for the language of France that was distinct from the adjective. It's not uncommon that I need to pause and clarify (typically "French people", that is, native francophones vs. residents of France). Not sure why more ambiguity is to be sought after.

Liquid_Fire 3y ago
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I would never interpret "French people" to mean anything other than people from France (not necessarily resident in France though). If we're referring to language then it would be something like "French speakers", or "native French speakers" if you want to be specific.
- simbolit 3y ago
  He meant "French" primarily means "French people" and only secondarily "French language". I'd try to distinguish this with a definite article, like "the French" vs "French", but what do I know?
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zeristor 3y ago

The irony. I am a bit indignant at having to call English British English, why isn’t it English English; to differentiate it from American English, decorated with a little US flag as a visual guide.

dontlaugh 3y ago
To include English as spoken in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, etc. “Celtic archipelago English” is a mouthful, although it would be more accurate when including Ireland.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Seriously. OP doesn't seem to realize that someone in Ireland may also be a "bit indignant" at suggesting it's merely "English" English. British English means it's English as written in the British Isles.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Someone in Ireland may reasonably also have a problem with “British Isles”, but that’s harder to fix.

Penyngton 3y ago

Here's a link you can use to explain the topic to people who make this mistake: https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/persian_not_farsi.htm https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/persian_not_farsi.h...