4 ms·

Have you considered that labor laws protect workers, and workers who are happy and feel safe and not exploited are more productive? It's entirely possible to r

Have you considered that labor laws protect workers, and workers who are happy and feel safe and not exploited are more productive? It's entirely possible to run a business without exploiting your workers and trying to squeeze every red cent out of them.

inglor_cz 3y ago
"Have you considered that labor laws protect workers, and workers who are happy and feel safe and not exploited are more productive?" I remember reading an interview with Stephane Israel, the director of Arianespace, who complained that with a leisurely 35-hour workweek, they have no chance competing with workaholics at SpaceX. While it would be a much nicer world if you were right, I am not sure you are. East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately.
- jackcosgrove 3y ago
  > East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately. I think East Asian working culture is pushing the limits of human physiology and psychology. I've seen documentaries on South Korean work culture, for example, where people consistently receive less sleep than is healthy because they work so much. To use the example of Korea again, their work culture is probably contributing to the low birthrate which is ultimately counterproductive. There's a vignette I've heard about a movie theater. Imagine someone in the front of the theater stands up to get a better view. The person behind them then needs to stand up to maintain the same view. Eventually everyone is standing up, with the same view as before and more uncomfortable than when they were sitting. It's an analogy for heavy work cultures, which can be counterproductive and unnecessary after a certain point. Could French work culture be more productive than American, or Korean, work culture? I don't know, but it's not simply a matter of measuring short term outputs and ignoring externalities such as rates of depression, alienation, poor health, or low birthrates.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  I value not working way more than raising the GDP. It is not a competition for first place where you will receive some kind of medal from Wikipedia.
aborsy 3y ago
This is a simplistic view. The protective labor laws protect some workers, but can bring about a host of adverse effects. The good and bad are equally protected. For example, my work place in France was so toxic that over time I developed psychological problems, because the institution could not address the abuse, harassment, bullying, etc, since everyone had secure permanent contracts (CDI) strongly protected by unions and could afford arbitrary behavior. A lot of people didn’t care doing their jobs properly, bringing about an environment with problems everywhere.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Yes, hence why pushing for extreme protection against firings can be even worse than no protection at all Especially with no way to fire the person not even 'virtually'
- Saline9515 3y ago
  That's an excellent point, it's even worse in the public administration where everyone is un-fireable. The only way to get the bad apples out is usually through a promotion :-/
baby 3y ago
It’s actually quite hard to find a stable job in France due to these laws: companies only give short term contracts and then rotate you out once they get in danger zone (you need to hire them full time now). Also my friends back in France are always in holidays. They’re forced to take a full month in some positions like banking as they need to ensure continuity of business even when people are not there for extended periods of time. A friend of mine has 45 days off. Personally I think it’s great but if you’re in a competitive industry AND competing with the American Workaholics you don’t have a single chance.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
  Everything you wrote is either lies, or very specific to an industry that I have never seen in the past 50 years. But I would say lies or FUD because it’s ridiculous.
  - baby 3y ago
    Truth is hard to accept, what can I say.
- genman 3y ago
  Aw, poor Americans and their tiny 2 week long vacation. :) People in Europe will never understand this mindless slaving. ;)
- LelouBil 3y ago
  Well, in france, rotating short term contacts for a long term position is illegal.
  - Saline9515 3y ago
    It's harder to prove, as the employees move out of the company.
- Saline9515 3y ago
  Unless I'm wrong, there are more than 45 days of work in a year. How come the are "always in holidays" then? Joke aside, American friends seem to me that they're always fighting a perpetual burn-out, as they can't take holidays and get some real rest. When I was working in France, I used to take a 1 month break in summer. I always felt that after the third week, something changed in my body, as my nervous system was fully rested and I was ready to go back work my ass off. So maybe there's a reason, and if taking a month off allows you to be 1/12 more productive for the whole year, it's worth it?
HPsquared 3y ago
Safer individually, but the whole ship goes down together.

inglor_cz 3y ago

"Have you considered that labor laws protect workers, and workers who are happy and feel safe and not exploited are more productive?" I remember reading an interview with Stephane Israel, the director of Arianespace, who complained that with a leisurely 35-hour workweek, they have no chance competing with workaholics at SpaceX. While it would be a much nicer world if you were right, I am not sure you are. East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately.

jackcosgrove 3y ago
> East Asians work even more and they seem to be overtaking the Western Civilization lately. I think East Asian working culture is pushing the limits of human physiology and psychology. I've seen documentaries on South Korean work culture, for example, where people consistently receive less sleep than is healthy because they work so much. To use the example of Korea again, their work culture is probably contributing to the low birthrate which is ultimately counterproductive. There's a vignette I've heard about a movie theater. Imagine someone in the front of the theater stands up to get a better view. The person behind them then needs to stand up to maintain the same view. Eventually everyone is standing up, with the same view as before and more uncomfortable than when they were sitting. It's an analogy for heavy work cultures, which can be counterproductive and unnecessary after a certain point. Could French work culture be more productive than American, or Korean, work culture? I don't know, but it's not simply a matter of measuring short term outputs and ignoring externalities such as rates of depression, alienation, poor health, or low birthrates.
rightbyte 3y ago
I value not working way more than raising the GDP. It is not a competition for first place where you will receive some kind of medal from Wikipedia.

aborsy 3y ago

This is a simplistic view. The protective labor laws protect some workers, but can bring about a host of adverse effects. The good and bad are equally protected. For example, my work place in France was so toxic that over time I developed psychological problems, because the institution could not address the abuse, harassment, bullying, etc, since everyone had secure permanent contracts (CDI) strongly protected by unions and could afford arbitrary behavior. A lot of people didn’t care doing their jobs properly, bringing about an environment with problems everywhere.

raverbashing 3y ago
Yes, hence why pushing for extreme protection against firings can be even worse than no protection at all Especially with no way to fire the person not even 'virtually'
Saline9515 3y ago
That's an excellent point, it's even worse in the public administration where everyone is un-fireable. The only way to get the bad apples out is usually through a promotion :-/

baby 3y ago

It’s actually quite hard to find a stable job in France due to these laws: companies only give short term contracts and then rotate you out once they get in danger zone (you need to hire them full time now). Also my friends back in France are always in holidays. They’re forced to take a full month in some positions like banking as they need to ensure continuity of business even when people are not there for extended periods of time. A friend of mine has 45 days off. Personally I think it’s great but if you’re in a competitive industry AND competing with the American Workaholics you don’t have a single chance.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
Everything you wrote is either lies, or very specific to an industry that I have never seen in the past 50 years. But I would say lies or FUD because it’s ridiculous.
- baby 3y ago
  Truth is hard to accept, what can I say.
genman 3y ago
Aw, poor Americans and their tiny 2 week long vacation. :) People in Europe will never understand this mindless slaving. ;)
LelouBil 3y ago
Well, in france, rotating short term contacts for a long term position is illegal.
- Saline9515 3y ago
  It's harder to prove, as the employees move out of the company.
Saline9515 3y ago
Unless I'm wrong, there are more than 45 days of work in a year. How come the are "always in holidays" then? Joke aside, American friends seem to me that they're always fighting a perpetual burn-out, as they can't take holidays and get some real rest. When I was working in France, I used to take a 1 month break in summer. I always felt that after the third week, something changed in my body, as my nervous system was fully rested and I was ready to go back work my ass off. So maybe there's a reason, and if taking a month off allows you to be 1/12 more productive for the whole year, it's worth it?

HPsquared 3y ago

Safer individually, but the whole ship goes down together.