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I disagree. No matter how much trust there is I accept nobody to tell me "I need you to do ..." or some other direct variant. Fortunately I encountered few bad

I disagree. No matter how much trust there is I accept nobody to tell me "I need you to do ..." or some other direct variant. Fortunately I encountered few bad bosses like this.

freedomben 3y ago
This is honestly fascinating to me, so I ask these questions in a curious and honest attempt to understand you more. Do you know why you feel this way? How does it make you feel when somebody says that? Does this stay true even for a significant other? Meta: I upvoted because this is a legitimate perspective and one I think that needs to be shared. For the down voters, why would you down vote this? Is there a reason besides that you disagree? Down voting something just because you disagree is silly.
- kubanczyk 3y ago
  > Do you know why you feel this way? It seems genetic instead of cultural, at least in my case. The local culture is quite direct about commands. And when I look at my father, I see the same trait. Far stronger, actually. > How does it make you feel when somebody says that? When someone is bossing around, I suddenly start to feel extremely independent and being robbed of my agency. I'm likely to do the opposite, just to manifest/assert my "rights". Just a slight change of phrasing (or my own attention) can direct the decision to a different circuit. And the other side of the deal is that "I must" always means for me a very deep intrinsic motivation. I feel so much motivated about variety of the weirdest stuff that there's just no room left in me for "there's a societal expectation for you to do X". > Does this stay true even for a significant other? Of course, we often joke about it.
- PunchTornado 3y ago
  People should put effort in how they convey the message. If they don't put it, they don't care about you. A manager who doesn't care how he conveys the message, (or doesn't care how the same message is received differently by his different reports), doesn't care about his reports.
- habinero 3y ago
  It comes down to cultural norms, really. Where I am, a plain brusque "Do this" is rude. You act that way to people you really dislike. So the social interaction is you come up to me and are deliberately hostile and then order me to do something. That's what you do to an employee you dislike and wish would quit. Obviously I'm capable of understanding different people communicate differently, and I can deal, but that's always the initial reaction I'm going to have. In my experience, the disconnect in this thread comes from three things: 1. Different cultures. What's rude in California might not be in Finland. 2. Autistic people vs neurotypical. Autistic people don't see the underlying message of (I hate you, please quit) underlying the surface "Do this" conversation. And they (understandingly!) feel excluded and gaslit and frustrated. The solution there is for everyone to understand and work around the disconnect. 3. Antisocial HN nerds. There's always a few here who clearly don't care about other people and view them as things to be used and discarded. Other people aren't worth any effort.
  - brandensilva 3y ago
    So does everything have to be phrased as a question for you to feel better about a request? Aka "Hey Jim, can you tackle this issue?"
    - habinero 3y ago
      That would be a neutral way to phrase it, yep. It's less about the wording than the information it conveys, that you respect someone enough to talk to them politely and make the effort. If it's hard to see the difference, would it make sense if I made an analogy? Your girlfriend texts you "call me? :)" vs. "Call me." One is clearly flirty and in a good mood and the other could be angry? upset? urgent? The extra punctuation conveys information about how that person feels.
      - habinero 3y ago
        Actually, I did something there without thinking about it. I said "If X, would it be helpful if I did Y?" because I'm about to explain something basic and I don't want to sound condescending and treat you like you're stupid. "If it's hard to see the difference" = "It seems like this might be true, but I don't want to assume that. This way I give us both an out if I misjudged something and I'm accidentally being condescending." "would it be helpful if I" - "I am trying to be helpful and not fight and so I am offering this as a question, so you have the freedom to ask for clarification or to discount it if it's not helpful" It's less about the words and more about the "I am trying to be helpful and avoid sounding like I think you're dumb, which I do not" meaning.

I disagree. No matter how much trust there is I accept nobody to tell me "I need you to do ..." or some other direct variant. Fortunately I encountered few bad bosses like this.

freedomben 3y ago

This is honestly fascinating to me, so I ask these questions in a curious and honest attempt to understand you more. Do you know why you feel this way? How does it make you feel when somebody says that? Does this stay true even for a significant other? Meta: I upvoted because this is a legitimate perspective and one I think that needs to be shared. For the down voters, why would you down vote this? Is there a reason besides that you disagree? Down voting something just because you disagree is silly.

kubanczyk 3y ago
> Do you know why you feel this way? It seems genetic instead of cultural, at least in my case. The local culture is quite direct about commands. And when I look at my father, I see the same trait. Far stronger, actually. > How does it make you feel when somebody says that? When someone is bossing around, I suddenly start to feel extremely independent and being robbed of my agency. I'm likely to do the opposite, just to manifest/assert my "rights". Just a slight change of phrasing (or my own attention) can direct the decision to a different circuit. And the other side of the deal is that "I must" always means for me a very deep intrinsic motivation. I feel so much motivated about variety of the weirdest stuff that there's just no room left in me for "there's a societal expectation for you to do X". > Does this stay true even for a significant other? Of course, we often joke about it.
PunchTornado 3y ago
People should put effort in how they convey the message. If they don't put it, they don't care about you. A manager who doesn't care how he conveys the message, (or doesn't care how the same message is received differently by his different reports), doesn't care about his reports.
habinero 3y ago
It comes down to cultural norms, really. Where I am, a plain brusque "Do this" is rude. You act that way to people you really dislike. So the social interaction is you come up to me and are deliberately hostile and then order me to do something. That's what you do to an employee you dislike and wish would quit. Obviously I'm capable of understanding different people communicate differently, and I can deal, but that's always the initial reaction I'm going to have. In my experience, the disconnect in this thread comes from three things: 1. Different cultures. What's rude in California might not be in Finland. 2. Autistic people vs neurotypical. Autistic people don't see the underlying message of (I hate you, please quit) underlying the surface "Do this" conversation. And they (understandingly!) feel excluded and gaslit and frustrated. The solution there is for everyone to understand and work around the disconnect. 3. Antisocial HN nerds. There's always a few here who clearly don't care about other people and view them as things to be used and discarded. Other people aren't worth any effort.
- brandensilva 3y ago
  So does everything have to be phrased as a question for you to feel better about a request? Aka "Hey Jim, can you tackle this issue?"
  - habinero 3y ago
    That would be a neutral way to phrase it, yep. It's less about the wording than the information it conveys, that you respect someone enough to talk to them politely and make the effort. If it's hard to see the difference, would it make sense if I made an analogy? Your girlfriend texts you "call me? :)" vs. "Call me." One is clearly flirty and in a good mood and the other could be angry? upset? urgent? The extra punctuation conveys information about how that person feels.
    - habinero 3y ago
      Actually, I did something there without thinking about it. I said "If X, would it be helpful if I did Y?" because I'm about to explain something basic and I don't want to sound condescending and treat you like you're stupid. "If it's hard to see the difference" = "It seems like this might be true, but I don't want to assume that. This way I give us both an out if I misjudged something and I'm accidentally being condescending." "would it be helpful if I" - "I am trying to be helpful and not fight and so I am offering this as a question, so you have the freedom to ask for clarification or to discount it if it's not helpful" It's less about the words and more about the "I am trying to be helpful and avoid sounding like I think you're dumb, which I do not" meaning.