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> We do not live in a nice and peaceful world. Agreed partly because there are nations who backstab their allies by wiretapping their leaders. > People think

by rijoja 3y ago

> We do not live in a nice and peaceful world. Agreed partly because there are nations who backstab their allies by wiretapping their leaders. > People think that because the US leadership and public is willing to criticize themselves and export that attitude along with every other stufd the US exports ? > France and Russia alone have toppled more regimes in the last few years in africa than the US in the last few decades. okay but France is another ally of the US? If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who do you think would lead? > Chinese spies in every country basicaly. I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that? > While the US cleans up after colonial europe's mess in the past 70 years, europe developed a moral sense of arrogant superiority. Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie? > Name me one country the US fought with in its entire history that was not a european former colony? Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make. > I mean, let's be a bit candid here, the US CIA does not just work for the US but for NATO and EU's interests as well. What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest. > If honesty and self awareness was common europe would celebrate and treasure the CIA and the US for post-war peace, security and prosperity we all enjoy and for every war and chaos averted so far. The glass is half full in this case. Well it hasn't been peaceful at all?

_8j50 3y ago
> If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who will lead Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less. > I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that? Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. And in that context i was making the same point that spies are common and in peace times much more tolerated than in war. I don't know about the rest of the world but the brits did try and most of the US was greatful for their attmept (steele dossier). If their intent was malicious then I would blame FBI counterintel and it's failure more than bad spies being bad. > Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie? Hell no, but they wouldn't have happened without colonial europeans drawing random lines on a map. Even much of africa's economic woes and civil wars are a result of in-fighting due to these random lines. The US as a superpower also has like 800 foreign military bases and the largest navy in history which along with its vast intel community have kept enough peace both for the US and EU. It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything the CIA does but much of US interference has the backing of its allies, except in south america. Most of US's enemies consider Europe in the same boat and they will find it easier to attack europe due to geography. > Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make. True and korea too i suppose, i meant outside of coalition wars where the US fought on its own for obvious reasons. The point was that former colonies get left in shambles from the ottoman empire's middle east to SE asia and US spies and military intervene. Much of the toppling people think of happened in the cold war where anti-imperialist sentiment all over the world was being used to expand the russian and chinese communist empire and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then. > What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest. Sure it is, so long as what I think is let EU people decide whatever they want instesd if putin and xi decide for them for example. > Well it hasn't been peaceful at all? Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war. Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? Much of europe now fights wars like the US in remote countries, no hiding in bomb shelters and and sending your kids off to war with other europeans. Although putin might break that record soon.
- rijoja 3y ago
  > Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less. My point was exactly that you'll get vastly different results depending on what range of time you choose. That being said I'm still not sure if the French would take the lead on that one, which obviously would be quite a project to investigate... > Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. Na of course not, and a spade will be a spade, and backstabbing backstabbing, no matter how much you try to snake yourself out of it. > It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. The US supported the Soviet union militarily enabling them to put half of Europe under communist dictatorship. > It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? No because the CIA are torturing people and are paying people to rape, murder and torture for fun and profit, I don't think there really is anyone who can claim the moral highground. That doesn't mean that I won't say that it's immoral and wrong for these countries to do this, and perhaps more importantly shortsighted and countraproductive... > ... and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then. People in Europe complained a lot! > Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. Again as with the example above that really really depends on how you measure it. > And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war Yeah so you seem to have a bit of a tendency to say that there's peace everywhere and everywhere apart from places and times that you omit from the list more or less arbitrarily. It's like saying that the period 1939-1949 was really peaceful in Sweden and Switzerland. > Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? In that case overseas French territories would make it seem way way less peaceful.

by rijoja 3y ago

_8j50 3y ago

> If we where to compare Russia vs US worldwide since the end of WWII who will lead Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less. > I thought that your point was that spies was something we should just learn to accept, and something that we could make us of? Maybe the rest of the world could make use of these spies to make sure that you don't get a president that's not good for you? How would you like that? Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. And in that context i was making the same point that spies are common and in peace times much more tolerated than in war. I don't know about the rest of the world but the brits did try and most of the US was greatful for their attmept (steele dossier). If their intent was malicious then I would blame FBI counterintel and it's failure more than bad spies being bad. > Right so all US wars are humanitarian efforts? Where did you learn about this, in a Hollywood movie? Hell no, but they wouldn't have happened without colonial europeans drawing random lines on a map. Even much of africa's economic woes and civil wars are a result of in-fighting due to these random lines. The US as a superpower also has like 800 foreign military bases and the largest navy in history which along with its vast intel community have kept enough peace both for the US and EU. It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with everything the CIA does but much of US interference has the backing of its allies, except in south america. Most of US's enemies consider Europe in the same boat and they will find it easier to attack europe due to geography. > Germany is one. Spain and Italy would be to others, do you need more examples? Not that I understand what point you are trying to make. True and korea too i suppose, i meant outside of coalition wars where the US fought on its own for obvious reasons. The point was that former colonies get left in shambles from the ottoman empire's middle east to SE asia and US spies and military intervene. Much of the toppling people think of happened in the cold war where anti-imperialist sentiment all over the world was being used to expand the russian and chinese communist empire and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then. > What you think is the EU's interest maybe isn't necessarily what people in the EU think is in their interest. Sure it is, so long as what I think is let EU people decide whatever they want instesd if putin and xi decide for them for example. > Well it hasn't been peaceful at all? Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war. Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? Much of europe now fights wars like the US in remote countries, no hiding in bomb shelters and and sending your kids off to war with other europeans. Although putin might break that record soon.

rijoja 3y ago
> Hah! If you are gonna pull back the date, let's pull them back all the way to when both nations existed in 1776. How many african and pacific nations did France topple? Add that to the count and the US is dramatically less. My point was exactly that you'll get vastly different results depending on what range of time you choose. That being said I'm still not sure if the French would take the lead on that one, which obviously would be quite a project to investigate... > Reality doesn't change because you refuse to accept it. Na of course not, and a spade will be a spade, and backstabbing backstabbing, no matter how much you try to snake yourself out of it. > It is not just germany and russia your uncle sam protected you from. The US supported the Soviet union militarily enabling them to put half of Europe under communist dictatorship. > It's so weird to me that not even a century ago europeans were chopping off limbs, murdering and mutilating for profit all over the world and now you feel superior to americans because spies interfere in those same places? No because the CIA are torturing people and are paying people to rape, murder and torture for fun and profit, I don't think there really is anyone who can claim the moral highground. That doesn't mean that I won't say that it's immoral and wrong for these countries to do this, and perhaps more importantly shortsighted and countraproductive... > ... and the EU countries had no complaints with the US doing that then. People in Europe complained a lot! > Relatively speaking, post-ww2 has been the most peaceful time in human history. Again as with the example above that really really depends on how you measure it. > And for Europe outside of slavic europe I can't even think of one war Yeah so you seem to have a bit of a tendency to say that there's peace everywhere and everywhere apart from places and times that you omit from the list more or less arbitrarily. It's like saying that the period 1939-1949 was really peaceful in Sweden and Switzerland. > Maybe the one with UK and argentina counts? In that case overseas French territories would make it seem way way less peaceful.