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If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost. As a leader, you need to establish a rapport (with someone who is anyway initially inclined to

If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost. As a leader, you need to establish a rapport (with someone who is anyway initially inclined to desire rapport with you, because you're their boss and have outsize influence over future compensation) and negotiate over high-level context: IC availability and understanding what problems need solving. If everyone understands the problem and there's mutual trust, the details take care of themselves. Of course, "establish mutual trust" is a whole megillah unto itself. But if it exists, "take out the trash" is not bossy. If it doesn't exist, "could we take out the trash?" is incredibly rude.

neontomo 3y ago
I agree with you. Looking for the right word is missing the point and to me feels like overanalysing instead of understanding. I've only worked in one manager position but I noticed that different people liked different styles - some want to understand why we're doing something and figure out the best way to do it themselves, as it gives them agency and confidence in their abilities - others felt overwhelmed and wanted a more direct approach (do this, in this specific way, in this amount of time) and didn't care what the reason was. If your staff knows your character and that you will stand up for them and back their needs in the work place, the phrasing is secondary. The most important thing for me is to see the individual before directing them, and that takes time, empathy but also for them to see that I'm worthy of listening to (the criteria differ here).
strken 3y ago
"We need the trash taken out. Bob, are you going to be in the office Friday and can you do it?" is arguably better. I can't think of a situation in software development where you need someone to just go do something with zero discussion because seconds matter, other than maybe on-call.
PunchTornado 3y ago
I disagree. No matter how much trust there is I accept nobody to tell me "I need you to do ..." or some other direct variant. Fortunately I encountered few bad bosses like this.
- freedomben 3y ago
  This is honestly fascinating to me, so I ask these questions in a curious and honest attempt to understand you more. Do you know why you feel this way? How does it make you feel when somebody says that? Does this stay true even for a significant other? Meta: I upvoted because this is a legitimate perspective and one I think that needs to be shared. For the down voters, why would you down vote this? Is there a reason besides that you disagree? Down voting something just because you disagree is silly.
  - kubanczyk 3y ago
    > Do you know why you feel this way? It seems genetic instead of cultural, at least in my case. The local culture is quite direct about commands. And when I look at my father, I see the same trait. Far stronger, actually. > How does it make you feel when somebody says that? When someone is bossing around, I suddenly start to feel extremely independent and being robbed of my agency. I'm likely to do the opposite, just to manifest/assert my "rights". Just a slight change of phrasing (or my own attention) can direct the decision to a different circuit. And the other side of the deal is that "I must" always means for me a very deep intrinsic motivation. I feel so much motivated about variety of the weirdest stuff that there's just no room left in me for "there's a societal expectation for you to do X". > Does this stay true even for a significant other? Of course, we often joke about it.
  - PunchTornado 3y ago
    People should put effort in how they convey the message. If they don't put it, they don't care about you. A manager who doesn't care how he conveys the message, (or doesn't care how the same message is received differently by his different reports), doesn't care about his reports.
  - habinero 3y ago
    It comes down to cultural norms, really. Where I am, a plain brusque "Do this" is rude. You act that way to people you really dislike. So the social interaction is you come up to me and are deliberately hostile and then order me to do something. That's what you do to an employee you dislike and wish would quit. Obviously I'm capable of understanding different people communicate differently, and I can deal, but that's always the initial reaction I'm going to have. In my experience, the disconnect in this thread comes from three things: 1. Different cultures. What's rude in California might not be in Finland. 2. Autistic people vs neurotypical. Autistic people don't see the underlying message of (I hate you, please quit) underlying the surface "Do this" conversation. And they (understandingly!) feel excluded and gaslit and frustrated. The solution there is for everyone to understand and work around the disconnect. 3. Antisocial HN nerds. There's always a few here who clearly don't care about other people and view them as things to be used and discarded. Other people aren't worth any effort.
gardenhedge 3y ago
> If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost. As a leader.. If you're not considering your language and phrasing as a leader.. then you're not doing it right. Self reflection and adjustment is a huge part of leading.
- suoduandao2 3y ago
  Yes, but I think the ops point is that the correct phrasing is report-specific, and trying to get phrasing down without considering whom one will be speaking to is a sure sign of failure
  - gardenhedge 3y ago
    OP clearly said "If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost", which I quoted. OP is correct that rapport is important - although that's a different thing from what the article is discussing. An exercise for you and OP: Consider being the boss of a team where you haven't had time to build rapport with the team.
    - suoduandao2 3y ago
      Even then, I probably know enough about the culture to make some adjustments. I’m going to speak very differently to a group of blue collar workers whose first language is English than a technical team who have varying degrees of facility with the language. The industry we’re in would further inform the tone I adopt. I actually spent years doing something very similar to the exercise you’re suggesting, which is what led me to the conclusion that subtle variations of meaning are too easy to overthink to be worth it for anything but prose. Add to that the fact that the differences in meaning are going to be, well, different depending on the background of the person I’m speaking to led me to the conclusion that if I find myself thinking about phrasing for a particular person for more than a few seconds I should focus on getting to know that person better. My social interactions have improved a lot as a result.

neontomo 3y ago

I agree with you. Looking for the right word is missing the point and to me feels like overanalysing instead of understanding. I've only worked in one manager position but I noticed that different people liked different styles - some want to understand why we're doing something and figure out the best way to do it themselves, as it gives them agency and confidence in their abilities - others felt overwhelmed and wanted a more direct approach (do this, in this specific way, in this amount of time) and didn't care what the reason was. If your staff knows your character and that you will stand up for them and back their needs in the work place, the phrasing is secondary. The most important thing for me is to see the individual before directing them, and that takes time, empathy but also for them to see that I'm worthy of listening to (the criteria differ here).

strken 3y ago

"We need the trash taken out. Bob, are you going to be in the office Friday and can you do it?" is arguably better. I can't think of a situation in software development where you need someone to just go do something with zero discussion because seconds matter, other than maybe on-call.

PunchTornado 3y ago

I disagree. No matter how much trust there is I accept nobody to tell me "I need you to do ..." or some other direct variant. Fortunately I encountered few bad bosses like this.

freedomben 3y ago
This is honestly fascinating to me, so I ask these questions in a curious and honest attempt to understand you more. Do you know why you feel this way? How does it make you feel when somebody says that? Does this stay true even for a significant other? Meta: I upvoted because this is a legitimate perspective and one I think that needs to be shared. For the down voters, why would you down vote this? Is there a reason besides that you disagree? Down voting something just because you disagree is silly.
- kubanczyk 3y ago
  > Do you know why you feel this way? It seems genetic instead of cultural, at least in my case. The local culture is quite direct about commands. And when I look at my father, I see the same trait. Far stronger, actually. > How does it make you feel when somebody says that? When someone is bossing around, I suddenly start to feel extremely independent and being robbed of my agency. I'm likely to do the opposite, just to manifest/assert my "rights". Just a slight change of phrasing (or my own attention) can direct the decision to a different circuit. And the other side of the deal is that "I must" always means for me a very deep intrinsic motivation. I feel so much motivated about variety of the weirdest stuff that there's just no room left in me for "there's a societal expectation for you to do X". > Does this stay true even for a significant other? Of course, we often joke about it.
- PunchTornado 3y ago
  People should put effort in how they convey the message. If they don't put it, they don't care about you. A manager who doesn't care how he conveys the message, (or doesn't care how the same message is received differently by his different reports), doesn't care about his reports.
- habinero 3y ago
  It comes down to cultural norms, really. Where I am, a plain brusque "Do this" is rude. You act that way to people you really dislike. So the social interaction is you come up to me and are deliberately hostile and then order me to do something. That's what you do to an employee you dislike and wish would quit. Obviously I'm capable of understanding different people communicate differently, and I can deal, but that's always the initial reaction I'm going to have. In my experience, the disconnect in this thread comes from three things: 1. Different cultures. What's rude in California might not be in Finland. 2. Autistic people vs neurotypical. Autistic people don't see the underlying message of (I hate you, please quit) underlying the surface "Do this" conversation. And they (understandingly!) feel excluded and gaslit and frustrated. The solution there is for everyone to understand and work around the disconnect. 3. Antisocial HN nerds. There's always a few here who clearly don't care about other people and view them as things to be used and discarded. Other people aren't worth any effort.

gardenhedge 3y ago

> If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost. As a leader.. If you're not considering your language and phrasing as a leader.. then you're not doing it right. Self reflection and adjustment is a huge part of leading.

suoduandao2 3y ago
Yes, but I think the ops point is that the correct phrasing is report-specific, and trying to get phrasing down without considering whom one will be speaking to is a sure sign of failure
- gardenhedge 3y ago
  OP clearly said "If you're looking for the right turn of phrase, you already lost", which I quoted. OP is correct that rapport is important - although that's a different thing from what the article is discussing. An exercise for you and OP: Consider being the boss of a team where you haven't had time to build rapport with the team.
  - suoduandao2 3y ago
    Even then, I probably know enough about the culture to make some adjustments. I’m going to speak very differently to a group of blue collar workers whose first language is English than a technical team who have varying degrees of facility with the language. The industry we’re in would further inform the tone I adopt. I actually spent years doing something very similar to the exercise you’re suggesting, which is what led me to the conclusion that subtle variations of meaning are too easy to overthink to be worth it for anything but prose. Add to that the fact that the differences in meaning are going to be, well, different depending on the background of the person I’m speaking to led me to the conclusion that if I find myself thinking about phrasing for a particular person for more than a few seconds I should focus on getting to know that person better. My social interactions have improved a lot as a result.