3 ms·

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.

hashtag-til 3y ago
[flagged]
- microtherion 3y ago
  > How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    "I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified" You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring. In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.
    - kbenson 3y ago
      What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? "Power" also seeks competence. There's no one aspect that is sought is enough to to drown out all the others when hiring, at least not without an outside force requiring it. Do employers want employees that are easy to deal with? Obviously. Is that more important then skill and ability? It depends not only on the employer, but also probably the job being hired for, but nobody wants to hire an unqualified candidate over a qualified one.
      - astrange 3y ago
        > What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? Part of being a Marxist (parent comment) or an anti-immigrationist (grandparent comment) is that you're required to believe any statement anyone makes that has the right words in it. Even though you have no evidence for them.
  - trident5000 3y ago
    Its naive to think expanding the labor pool wouldnt reduce labor costs. Its supply and demand/economics 101. And obviously they (and every other company) is going to complain they cant fill positions locally in order to gain access to this cheaper pool.
    - astrange 3y ago
      If you're posting something is econ 101 you're probably wrong, and you're especially wrong if you claim adding people increases supply but not demand. People ARE demand. Labor economists don't use "econ 101", and importantly they prefer empirical evidence over theory.
- astrange 3y ago
  > starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.
  - microtherion 3y ago
    I can't recall ever having met a Cuban or North Korean engineer at Apple. But I've worked with some outstanding Iranian engineers. They did not strike me as particularly likely to spy for their country…
  - hashtag-til 3y ago
    If anything, these are small scale… I’m more talking about the wholesale scale from other dictatorship countries, under export control restrictions.
iaseiadit 3y ago
I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.
- throwaway12355 3y ago
  That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.
  - microtherion 3y ago
    I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.
    - hume77 3y ago
      In my 20 years at multiple companies I have rarely seen the Americans not try to create a diverse team. The other ones we all know on the other hand….

hashtag-til 3y ago

[flagged]

microtherion 3y ago
> How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  "I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified" You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring. In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.
  - kbenson 3y ago
    What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? "Power" also seeks competence. There's no one aspect that is sought is enough to to drown out all the others when hiring, at least not without an outside force requiring it. Do employers want employees that are easy to deal with? Obviously. Is that more important then skill and ability? It depends not only on the employer, but also probably the job being hired for, but nobody wants to hire an unqualified candidate over a qualified one.
    - astrange 3y ago
      > What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? Part of being a Marxist (parent comment) or an anti-immigrationist (grandparent comment) is that you're required to believe any statement anyone makes that has the right words in it. Even though you have no evidence for them.
- trident5000 3y ago
  Its naive to think expanding the labor pool wouldnt reduce labor costs. Its supply and demand/economics 101. And obviously they (and every other company) is going to complain they cant fill positions locally in order to gain access to this cheaper pool.
  - astrange 3y ago
    If you're posting something is econ 101 you're probably wrong, and you're especially wrong if you claim adding people increases supply but not demand. People ARE demand. Labor economists don't use "econ 101", and importantly they prefer empirical evidence over theory.
astrange 3y ago
> starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.
- microtherion 3y ago
  I can't recall ever having met a Cuban or North Korean engineer at Apple. But I've worked with some outstanding Iranian engineers. They did not strike me as particularly likely to spy for their country…
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  If anything, these are small scale… I’m more talking about the wholesale scale from other dictatorship countries, under export control restrictions.

iaseiadit 3y ago

I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.

throwaway12355 3y ago
That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.
- microtherion 3y ago
  I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.
  - hume77 3y ago
    In my 20 years at multiple companies I have rarely seen the Americans not try to create a diverse team. The other ones we all know on the other hand….