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Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to wor

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

tigen 3y ago
So what you're saying is banks don't want to pay well.
jen20 3y ago
The market solution to this is for those companies to pay more until they attract people to work there.
- astrange 3y ago
  There's plenty of reasons a job market wouldn't clear even if you raised the pay. You can't get blood from a stone, sort of thing. For instance, American citizens are not going to become farmworkers even if you paid them FAANG engineer wages. They just aren't. I think to attract people to certain careers, anytime after they're born is too late. You have to have started with their parents. Good chess players are good because they started at age 5, not because they went to school for it.
landemva 3y ago
> There's not enough talent in US The hiring pool could be larger, but HR and hiring managers don't want men over 50.
- umeshunni 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure there are a ton of programmers over 50.
  - bobsmooth 3y ago
    I can't tell if that's sarcasm but C is over 50 years old.
- fallingknife 3y ago
  There is no hidden pool of SWE talent over 50. The number of engineers that are over 50 now is going to be roughly equivalent to the number software engineers there were 30 years ago, which is maybe 5% of the number today.
deaddodo 3y ago
Except, of all nations in the world, the US is still by far the largest foreign skilled talent hirer. Brain drain is something they bought into during the cold war and this idea that "they don't have talent" is ridiculous. They have a shit ton of homegrown talent and are also more than willing to hire your talent to further monopolize and supplement it.
gymbeaux 3y ago
I dunno man I’ve been rejected by a lot of companies over the last ~8 years, seems like they can find talent just fine.
selimthegrim 3y ago
Have you seen what pharma companies that aren’t Genentech pay their tech staff? Also they love hiring postdocs to keep the wages down.
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  Phrama companies pay their engineering staff, within the reasonable market rates.
idrios 3y ago
I don't even think this was true when people were saying it 5 years ago, but it's definitely not true now. Literally yesterday I met a kid doing sales at Microcenter with a CS degree who couldn't find a dev job after 1.5 years of searching. Go to any programmers meetup in your city and there will be dozens of people trying to network into a dev job. Look up any video online of "I applied to 500 jobs" from people trying to break into a software role. Look at the reddit page for any bootcamp to see all the CS grads asking if it'll get them a job. American CS graduates aren't starry eyed for FAANG jobs, they're starving for any jobs
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  You're right, there are two tiers of people in the field - people who know how to write software and the others. Bootcamp is literally not a CS grad situation. And I have worked with bootcampers just over a year ago - I can only say that it's just a sea of trash. Most bootcampers are just not trained enough to think more than a minute into the future. As for "they aren't starry eyed", you're literally proving that they are. You should know that starry-eyed doesn't mean only people who are picky, but people who think that learning the bare minimum and just treating engineering like they treated English class at school is going to land them a nice job. The number of CS graduates that can just about write SQL that I interviewed in the last 2 years is... astounding. In short - American CS graduates thought that they would get to do the jobs, that we don't need people for. We don't need an American employee that just about writes tests for something a code analysis tool can generate, for the price of someone who can actually deliver a product. And let's not kid ourselves, CS graduates aren't competing against H1B hires. They're competing against other CS graduates in the US. No one is looking at an experienced engineer in Brazil and a CS graduate for the same position.
  - idrios 3y ago
    I know nothing about your company or interview process, but I'm speaking as someone just coming out of a long and painful job hunt. I'll agree only that there are a lot of bad candidates who come out of bootcamps. There are a lot of good ones too. A lot of bootcamps run on the model that they train the bare minimum for a student to get a job, so they can take a cut of the paycheck. What you get is socialites learning just enough how to code to pass an interview, and good developers being aggressively trained in how to pass interviews. Some people love bootcamps because it's what got them a job, or got them a cheap candidate, I personally dislike them. But I did hackathons, game jams, and went to meetups enough while job searching to say that there are a lot of incredibly talented people who are just not getting hired. If anyone is having trouble hiring a quality candidate, it's their hiring process that's broken. Job applications have become so gamified that it's impossible to filter signal for noise. Recruiters post insane expectations like "must know Javascript, React, Postgres, API's, C#, Python, and <obscure technology nobody has ever heard of that is specific to that company>" for a software engineer role. A competent CS fresh graduate won't apply to that position because they might only know Python from that list, even if they've written their own compiler, written ML algorithms from first principles, and have a deep understanding of what the computer's doing under the hood. That student is smart and would be so easily trainable, but they don't apply because the requirements are so high. So the people who do apply are those courageous enough to apply to a role they meet 30% criteria for, those shameless enough to flat out lie on an application, and bootcamp grads who have spent 2 weeks learning all of those technologies at surface level; and then if you quiz them on anything in any amount of depth they flounder. But those bootcamps advertise themselves as entry-level roles, and so the fresh CS grads apply to those instead of to the companies that have 900 "sea of trash" applicants, which wants an expert in every technology ever invented. The bootcamps often just turn around and have the applicant rewrite their resume into something that's nearly a lie, and then aggressively apply to jobs. Result is companies keep seeing fantastic resumes with not fantastic candidates, and ignoring modest resumes with trainable candidates, and company concludes that the requirements were not high enough to filter out the trash so they add yet another job requirement. > And let's not kid ourselves, CS graduates aren't competing against H1B hires. Yes they are. I have great respect for all of the foreigners on H1B that I know, but almost all of them obtained their H1B fresh out of grad school, not after a long career overseas.
fallingknife 3y ago
Guess those companies can start paying more. There is no labor shortage, only a wage shortage.
- JAlexoid 3y ago
  So why are companies willing to pay drastically more in salary on H1B in addition to spending thousands of dollars of relocation costs and legal fees? There's a massive shortage of qualified labor. Over the last three years so many people got to go from junior to senior positions, simply in an effort to retain them.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Maybe they could sell a downtown skyscraper so they can afford competitive salaries.

tigen 3y ago

So what you're saying is banks don't want to pay well.

jen20 3y ago

The market solution to this is for those companies to pay more until they attract people to work there.

astrange 3y ago
There's plenty of reasons a job market wouldn't clear even if you raised the pay. You can't get blood from a stone, sort of thing. For instance, American citizens are not going to become farmworkers even if you paid them FAANG engineer wages. They just aren't. I think to attract people to certain careers, anytime after they're born is too late. You have to have started with their parents. Good chess players are good because they started at age 5, not because they went to school for it.

landemva 3y ago

> There's not enough talent in US The hiring pool could be larger, but HR and hiring managers don't want men over 50.

umeshunni 3y ago
Yeah, I'm sure there are a ton of programmers over 50.
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  I can't tell if that's sarcasm but C is over 50 years old.
fallingknife 3y ago
There is no hidden pool of SWE talent over 50. The number of engineers that are over 50 now is going to be roughly equivalent to the number software engineers there were 30 years ago, which is maybe 5% of the number today.

deaddodo 3y ago

Except, of all nations in the world, the US is still by far the largest foreign skilled talent hirer. Brain drain is something they bought into during the cold war and this idea that "they don't have talent" is ridiculous. They have a shit ton of homegrown talent and are also more than willing to hire your talent to further monopolize and supplement it.

gymbeaux 3y ago

I dunno man I’ve been rejected by a lot of companies over the last ~8 years, seems like they can find talent just fine.

selimthegrim 3y ago

Have you seen what pharma companies that aren’t Genentech pay their tech staff? Also they love hiring postdocs to keep the wages down.

JAlexoid 3y ago
Phrama companies pay their engineering staff, within the reasonable market rates.

idrios 3y ago

I don't even think this was true when people were saying it 5 years ago, but it's definitely not true now. Literally yesterday I met a kid doing sales at Microcenter with a CS degree who couldn't find a dev job after 1.5 years of searching. Go to any programmers meetup in your city and there will be dozens of people trying to network into a dev job. Look up any video online of "I applied to 500 jobs" from people trying to break into a software role. Look at the reddit page for any bootcamp to see all the CS grads asking if it'll get them a job. American CS graduates aren't starry eyed for FAANG jobs, they're starving for any jobs

JAlexoid 3y ago
You're right, there are two tiers of people in the field - people who know how to write software and the others. Bootcamp is literally not a CS grad situation. And I have worked with bootcampers just over a year ago - I can only say that it's just a sea of trash. Most bootcampers are just not trained enough to think more than a minute into the future. As for "they aren't starry eyed", you're literally proving that they are. You should know that starry-eyed doesn't mean only people who are picky, but people who think that learning the bare minimum and just treating engineering like they treated English class at school is going to land them a nice job. The number of CS graduates that can just about write SQL that I interviewed in the last 2 years is... astounding. In short - American CS graduates thought that they would get to do the jobs, that we don't need people for. We don't need an American employee that just about writes tests for something a code analysis tool can generate, for the price of someone who can actually deliver a product. And let's not kid ourselves, CS graduates aren't competing against H1B hires. They're competing against other CS graduates in the US. No one is looking at an experienced engineer in Brazil and a CS graduate for the same position.
- idrios 3y ago
  I know nothing about your company or interview process, but I'm speaking as someone just coming out of a long and painful job hunt. I'll agree only that there are a lot of bad candidates who come out of bootcamps. There are a lot of good ones too. A lot of bootcamps run on the model that they train the bare minimum for a student to get a job, so they can take a cut of the paycheck. What you get is socialites learning just enough how to code to pass an interview, and good developers being aggressively trained in how to pass interviews. Some people love bootcamps because it's what got them a job, or got them a cheap candidate, I personally dislike them. But I did hackathons, game jams, and went to meetups enough while job searching to say that there are a lot of incredibly talented people who are just not getting hired. If anyone is having trouble hiring a quality candidate, it's their hiring process that's broken. Job applications have become so gamified that it's impossible to filter signal for noise. Recruiters post insane expectations like "must know Javascript, React, Postgres, API's, C#, Python, and <obscure technology nobody has ever heard of that is specific to that company>" for a software engineer role. A competent CS fresh graduate won't apply to that position because they might only know Python from that list, even if they've written their own compiler, written ML algorithms from first principles, and have a deep understanding of what the computer's doing under the hood. That student is smart and would be so easily trainable, but they don't apply because the requirements are so high. So the people who do apply are those courageous enough to apply to a role they meet 30% criteria for, those shameless enough to flat out lie on an application, and bootcamp grads who have spent 2 weeks learning all of those technologies at surface level; and then if you quiz them on anything in any amount of depth they flounder. But those bootcamps advertise themselves as entry-level roles, and so the fresh CS grads apply to those instead of to the companies that have 900 "sea of trash" applicants, which wants an expert in every technology ever invented. The bootcamps often just turn around and have the applicant rewrite their resume into something that's nearly a lie, and then aggressively apply to jobs. Result is companies keep seeing fantastic resumes with not fantastic candidates, and ignoring modest resumes with trainable candidates, and company concludes that the requirements were not high enough to filter out the trash so they add yet another job requirement. > And let's not kid ourselves, CS graduates aren't competing against H1B hires. Yes they are. I have great respect for all of the foreigners on H1B that I know, but almost all of them obtained their H1B fresh out of grad school, not after a long career overseas.

fallingknife 3y ago

Guess those companies can start paying more. There is no labor shortage, only a wage shortage.

JAlexoid 3y ago
So why are companies willing to pay drastically more in salary on H1B in addition to spending thousands of dollars of relocation costs and legal fees? There's a massive shortage of qualified labor. Over the last three years so many people got to go from junior to senior positions, simply in an effort to retain them.

mixmastamyk 3y ago

Maybe they could sell a downtown skyscraper so they can afford competitive salaries.