8 ms·

Ok after seeing the assemblers/VM's last week I wasn't expecting to see much new this week.. then I saw this: https://github.com/krasin/llvm-dcpu16/ https://gi

Ok after seeing the assemblers/VM's last week I wasn't expecting to see much new this week.. then I saw this: https://github.com/krasin/llvm-dcpu16/ https://github.com/krasin/llvm-dcpu16/ C compiler support for dcpu16! In a way this almost saddens me as by the time the game comes out it looks like the community will have javascript ported to the CPU and no one will actually have to program in assembler as per the original idea... ;)

TazeTSchnitzel 15y ago
It could run JavaScript, but this is a 16-bit processor we're talking about here, with minimal RAM. It's more likely we'll be using C and BASIC ;)
- gravitronic 15y ago
  agreed, but at this rate I figured I'd suggest the moon
- flatline 15y ago
  Yeah this seems like the exact scenario where hand-rolled assembly and perhaps some hand-optimized C will really shine. You don't see a lot of embedded processors running javascript, for example. If your ship can process data and respond 5% faster than an opponent's, all other things being equal, you will come out ahead. If the current level of interest persists, by the time the game launches, I imagine that the vast majority of people will be downloading and running programs written by others. These will have been pored over and optimized to an extent that most of us would be unable to achieve by ourselves, and it will not pay to roll your own trivial implementation. I'd be curious to see what Notch can do to still encourage people to learn how the CPU works themselves. If the environment and game dynamics are rich enough, perhaps this will not really be a problem?
  - DanBC 15y ago
    > I'd be curious to see what Notch can do to still encourage people to learn how the CPU works themselves. Have some ship customisation stuff tied to assembly programming. People love changing the colour of carpets or wearing hats or collecting and displaying fossils. Then allow the community to create simple how to guides - "This program will do $THIS_THING; here's how it works; now try to change it to do something slightly different." I guess Codecademy should have a DCPU section too.
    - seanp2k2 15y ago
      DID SOMEONE SAY HATS?! Agreed that higher-level langs would be helpful for "newbies". I wonder if this was at all inspire by Schemaerse (google it, but TL;DR it's a space game written mostly with Postgres triggers where /you build the game client/ in whatever you want to use to interface with the pgsql :)
  - dons 15y ago
    I think we're going to see some clever optimizing DSLs (a la FFTW) -- restricted languages for the kinds of embedded programs you write on such an architecture will be easier to optimize than general purpose languages. Particularly if they have a clear cost model. The Haskell embedding is very likely to head in that direction. (See e.g. in this style : http://www.fftw.org/faq/section4.html#whyfast http://www.fftw.org/faq/section4.html#whyfast or this style : http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~chak/papers/polymer.pdf http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~chak/papers/polymer.pdf -- code generation + DSL + constraint solver for instruction level timings). At least, that's what I'd do.
    - masklinn 15y ago
      Low-level lisps à la GOOL/GOAL[0] will probably gain some traction as well, or so I hope. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
      - wjbr 15y ago
        Did they ever get released to the public?
        duaneb 15y ago
        No, but the design docs are still out there if you contact the former engineers. I would distribute them if I had permission.
    - cpeterso 15y ago
      I agree that 0x10c DSLs that control game play will be more successful than a C compiler. :)
    - mzl 15y ago
      The polymer article was very interesting, really cool stuff. However, I could not find any mention of using a constraint solver for instruction level timings. Is that in another article, or did I just miss it?
  - zxoq 15y ago
    Yep, only thing I dislike is that the processor does not simulate the importance of cache. If the in-game processors allowed the selection of different cache-line sizes (both instruction cache and data cache) for different costs (paid via the in-game currency), it would add another level of depth to the game market. It would also mean getting into the nitty-gritty of optimization would be even more worth it.
    - rictic 15y ago
      Why currency and not cycles? The VM is designed to give each CPU ~100k cycles per second (billed per instruction).
- Hoff 15y ago
  For those old grey-hairs around and reading that remember RSX-11M/M+, there was a tool known as TKB. The task builder. TKB allowed (much) larger applications to run in the address space of a 16-bit DEC PDP-11, using what were called overlays, and overlay trees. With overlays, the application call tree within an application was analyzed and implemented to allow various sections of code within a tree of subroutine calls to be paged out to backing storage. If the underlying "processor" is fast enough and if you have enough swap space available, then you can stuff a whole lot of code into a 16-bit address space. Just not all loaded in physical memory at once. And debugging it... Shudder...
- KC8ZKF 15y ago
  How about FORTH?
  - colomon 15y ago
    Shhhh.... don't give away our secret weapon!
  - brianobush 15y ago
    or false? http://strlen.com/false-language http://strlen.com/false-language
- pjmlp 15y ago
  Turbo Pascal!
  - tomjen3 15y ago
    New challenge - clone the Turbo Pascal IDE and get it to run on the processor.
    - cpeterso 15y ago
      For reference, Things That Turbo Pascal is Smaller Than. I am still amazed that the compiler and IDE are only 39 KB. http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html
      - pjmlp 15y ago
        Turbo Pascal 3.0 was my first contact with Pascal, and while it was great for the time, I doubt I can call it an IDE. It was more similar to vi + integrated compiler as an IDE.
- praptak 15y ago
  4096 18-bit words are known to host a Lisp interpreter (http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_family/ http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_fa... ), so 64K 16-bit words should be more than enough :)
secoif 15y ago
Don't start worrying about the "purity" and "this was never intended". You don't specify a processor instruction set in the real world without expecting people to write higher level languages for it, so why expect people to write at such a low level in a GAME of all places? I am fairly certain everything is going exactly as planned. Notch has got this.
- soupboy 15y ago
  I second this. If anything, Notch must be feeling immensely satisfied if not somewhat overwhelmed by all the effort that the community has put into his project.
  - GuiA 15y ago
    It must definitely be overwhelming. So much hype is building, and he doesn't even have a functional prototype working yet. Greater men have failed to succeed when so much pressure is present. I love the game idea, and think Notch is a great game designer+developer, and sincerely hope that it will be what we think it will be. But at the same time, I'm not as optimistic as others might be.
- joncalhoun 15y ago
  I second this. Think about all the hype and excitement he is building simply be releasing a processor instruction set. Pure marketing genius =D.
- Niten 15y ago
  Along similar lines, this morning I was thinking how wonderful it would be if whatever interfaces exist between the ship's computer and the rest of the 0x10c game world are rich enough to make security vulnerabilities in players' DCPU-16 code a real concern. Imagine disabling an opponent's ship by exploiting a buffer overflow in a custom communications protocol implementation, for instance...
  - lloeki 15y ago
    That very well may be part of the game: https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/187474819980328962 https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/187474819980328962
rmc 15y ago
It's a game. if you can make your code run faster, you'll probably get more magic pixels.
- kilowatt 15y ago
  I for one plan on writing the first in-game magic-pixel-collecting DCPU16 botnet.
drawkbox 15y ago
He who has the best systems will win, no matter the tools or platform. I love it. I think it is great for teaching kids to program as well, or be excited about it. Notch is going to do what thousands of teachers can't do because he is using the power of gameplay to drive it.

TazeTSchnitzel 15y ago

It could run JavaScript, but this is a 16-bit processor we're talking about here, with minimal RAM. It's more likely we'll be using C and BASIC ;)

gravitronic 15y ago
agreed, but at this rate I figured I'd suggest the moon
flatline 15y ago
Yeah this seems like the exact scenario where hand-rolled assembly and perhaps some hand-optimized C will really shine. You don't see a lot of embedded processors running javascript, for example. If your ship can process data and respond 5% faster than an opponent's, all other things being equal, you will come out ahead. If the current level of interest persists, by the time the game launches, I imagine that the vast majority of people will be downloading and running programs written by others. These will have been pored over and optimized to an extent that most of us would be unable to achieve by ourselves, and it will not pay to roll your own trivial implementation. I'd be curious to see what Notch can do to still encourage people to learn how the CPU works themselves. If the environment and game dynamics are rich enough, perhaps this will not really be a problem?
- DanBC 15y ago
  > I'd be curious to see what Notch can do to still encourage people to learn how the CPU works themselves. Have some ship customisation stuff tied to assembly programming. People love changing the colour of carpets or wearing hats or collecting and displaying fossils. Then allow the community to create simple how to guides - "This program will do $THIS_THING; here's how it works; now try to change it to do something slightly different." I guess Codecademy should have a DCPU section too.
  - seanp2k2 15y ago
    DID SOMEONE SAY HATS?! Agreed that higher-level langs would be helpful for "newbies". I wonder if this was at all inspire by Schemaerse (google it, but TL;DR it's a space game written mostly with Postgres triggers where /you build the game client/ in whatever you want to use to interface with the pgsql :)
- dons 15y ago
  I think we're going to see some clever optimizing DSLs (a la FFTW) -- restricted languages for the kinds of embedded programs you write on such an architecture will be easier to optimize than general purpose languages. Particularly if they have a clear cost model. The Haskell embedding is very likely to head in that direction. (See e.g. in this style : http://www.fftw.org/faq/section4.html#whyfast http://www.fftw.org/faq/section4.html#whyfast or this style : http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~chak/papers/polymer.pdf http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~chak/papers/polymer.pdf -- code generation + DSL + constraint solver for instruction level timings). At least, that's what I'd do.
  - masklinn 15y ago
    Low-level lisps à la GOOL/GOAL[0] will probably gain some traction as well, or so I hope. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp
    - wjbr 15y ago
      Did they ever get released to the public?
      - duaneb 15y ago
        No, but the design docs are still out there if you contact the former engineers. I would distribute them if I had permission.
  - cpeterso 15y ago
    I agree that 0x10c DSLs that control game play will be more successful than a C compiler. :)
  - mzl 15y ago
    The polymer article was very interesting, really cool stuff. However, I could not find any mention of using a constraint solver for instruction level timings. Is that in another article, or did I just miss it?
- zxoq 15y ago
  Yep, only thing I dislike is that the processor does not simulate the importance of cache. If the in-game processors allowed the selection of different cache-line sizes (both instruction cache and data cache) for different costs (paid via the in-game currency), it would add another level of depth to the game market. It would also mean getting into the nitty-gritty of optimization would be even more worth it.
  - rictic 15y ago
    Why currency and not cycles? The VM is designed to give each CPU ~100k cycles per second (billed per instruction).
Hoff 15y ago
For those old grey-hairs around and reading that remember RSX-11M/M+, there was a tool known as TKB. The task builder. TKB allowed (much) larger applications to run in the address space of a 16-bit DEC PDP-11, using what were called overlays, and overlay trees. With overlays, the application call tree within an application was analyzed and implemented to allow various sections of code within a tree of subroutine calls to be paged out to backing storage. If the underlying "processor" is fast enough and if you have enough swap space available, then you can stuff a whole lot of code into a 16-bit address space. Just not all loaded in physical memory at once. And debugging it... Shudder...
KC8ZKF 15y ago
How about FORTH?
- colomon 15y ago
  Shhhh.... don't give away our secret weapon!
- brianobush 15y ago
  or false? http://strlen.com/false-language http://strlen.com/false-language
pjmlp 15y ago
Turbo Pascal!
- tomjen3 15y ago
  New challenge - clone the Turbo Pascal IDE and get it to run on the processor.
  - cpeterso 15y ago
    For reference, Things That Turbo Pascal is Smaller Than. I am still amazed that the compiler and IDE are only 39 KB. http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html
    - pjmlp 15y ago
      Turbo Pascal 3.0 was my first contact with Pascal, and while it was great for the time, I doubt I can call it an IDE. It was more similar to vi + integrated compiler as an IDE.
praptak 15y ago
4096 18-bit words are known to host a Lisp interpreter (http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_family/ http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/maclisp_fa... ), so 64K 16-bit words should be more than enough :)

secoif 15y ago

Don't start worrying about the "purity" and "this was never intended". You don't specify a processor instruction set in the real world without expecting people to write higher level languages for it, so why expect people to write at such a low level in a GAME of all places? I am fairly certain everything is going exactly as planned. Notch has got this.

soupboy 15y ago
I second this. If anything, Notch must be feeling immensely satisfied if not somewhat overwhelmed by all the effort that the community has put into his project.
- GuiA 15y ago
  It must definitely be overwhelming. So much hype is building, and he doesn't even have a functional prototype working yet. Greater men have failed to succeed when so much pressure is present. I love the game idea, and think Notch is a great game designer+developer, and sincerely hope that it will be what we think it will be. But at the same time, I'm not as optimistic as others might be.
joncalhoun 15y ago
I second this. Think about all the hype and excitement he is building simply be releasing a processor instruction set. Pure marketing genius =D.
Niten 15y ago
Along similar lines, this morning I was thinking how wonderful it would be if whatever interfaces exist between the ship's computer and the rest of the 0x10c game world are rich enough to make security vulnerabilities in players' DCPU-16 code a real concern. Imagine disabling an opponent's ship by exploiting a buffer overflow in a custom communications protocol implementation, for instance...
- lloeki 15y ago
  That very well may be part of the game: https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/187474819980328962 https://twitter.com/#!/notch/statuses/187474819980328962

rmc 15y ago

It's a game. if you can make your code run faster, you'll probably get more magic pixels.

kilowatt 15y ago
I for one plan on writing the first in-game magic-pixel-collecting DCPU16 botnet.

drawkbox 15y ago

He who has the best systems will win, no matter the tools or platform. I love it. I think it is great for teaching kids to program as well, or be excited about it. Notch is going to do what thousands of teachers can't do because he is using the power of gameplay to drive it.