6 ms·

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already worki

by pavlov 3y ago

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a green card? Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? I’ll admit that I’m biased because I was in this process at one point. But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. So if anything, I brought a UK job to USA. And to turn that into a green card, the company would have to advertise the job on their website. It makes no sense.

microtherion 3y ago
> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - microtherion 3y ago
    > How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      "I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified" You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring. In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.
      - kbenson 3y ago
        What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? "Power" also seeks competence. There's no one aspect that is sought is enough to to drown out all the others when hiring, at least not without an outside force requiring it. Do employers want employees that are easy to deal with? Obviously. Is that more important then skill and ability? It depends not only on the employer, but also probably the job being hired for, but nobody wants to hire an unqualified candidate over a qualified one.
        astrange 3y ago
        > What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? Part of being a Marxist (parent comment) or an anti-immigrationist (grandparent comment) is that you're required to believe any statement anyone makes that has the right words in it. Even though you have no evidence for them.
    - trident5000 3y ago
      Its naive to think expanding the labor pool wouldnt reduce labor costs. Its supply and demand/economics 101. And obviously they (and every other company) is going to complain they cant fill positions locally in order to gain access to this cheaper pool.
      - astrange 3y ago
        If you're posting something is econ 101 you're probably wrong, and you're especially wrong if you claim adding people increases supply but not demand. People ARE demand. Labor economists don't use "econ 101", and importantly they prefer empirical evidence over theory.
  - astrange 3y ago
    > starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.
    - microtherion 3y ago
      I can't recall ever having met a Cuban or North Korean engineer at Apple. But I've worked with some outstanding Iranian engineers. They did not strike me as particularly likely to spy for their country…
    - hashtag-til 3y ago
      If anything, these are small scale… I’m more talking about the wholesale scale from other dictatorship countries, under export control restrictions.
- iaseiadit 3y ago
  I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.
  - throwaway12355 3y ago
    That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.
    - microtherion 3y ago
      I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.
      - hume77 3y ago
        In my 20 years at multiple companies I have rarely seen the Americans not try to create a diverse team. The other ones we all know on the other hand….
sangnoir 3y ago
> Why not give them a path to a green card? Because it's illegal to (positively) discriminate for these people and shield them from competing with American citizens and GC-holders for jobs. > Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? As Apple just found out: creating a fake position to end-run immigration law is illegal.
- ericye16 3y ago
  I think the point is that immigration law should be changed so companies don't have to jump through hoops like this.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    I too believe there has to be reform, but I also believe this is Apple being lazy/doing this for convenience. If the individuals are more skilled than citizens, the Apple should have been prepared to open the interviews for those jobs to everyone (including citizens and permanent residents), selected the (person they knew to have been) the best and gotten the paperwork in order. The subterfuge would be completely unnecessary if they applied under the correct visa class and skills of those involved are as advertised.
    - bubblethink 3y ago
      There is no such thing as correct class. Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. And almost everyone needs to go through the same process which involves this PERM business. And everyone needs to participate in this charade of hiring someone once, then pretending that they don't have the employee, and then emerging victorious by putting out an ad that only that person satisfies. The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired.
      - sangnoir 3y ago
        > Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. The laws governing immigration are very specific about the distinctions between visa classes and the requirements for each class- and the devil is in the details. > The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired. Perhaps, but that is your and Apple's (tacit) opinions. The government of the United States disagrees, and Apple just paid $25 million dollars to avoid getting this issue in front of a judge. The difference in perspective, AFAICT, is you think a GC is a reward for getting a job after besting others (including citizens) in interviews. The government's contention is that the bar is higher: PERM is for jobs no American citizen or permanent resident are able and willing to do[1]. There are separate visa classes for being merely good, and being irreplaceable. Pretending that a candidate who is in the former group belongs to the latter by posting jobs on a noticeboard in an unlit basement without stairs is dishonest. 1. "The DOL must certify to the USCIS that there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified, and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment"
User23 3y ago
> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.
- chabons 3y ago
  > Obviously you displaced a US citizen [...] I'm not sure this is obvious. 1) Apple is a multi-national company, and hires an employee in the UK. 2) This employee relocates to the US At what point do they displace the US citizen? All Apple jobs are not earmarked for US citizens (+residents, etc...), and they're already doing the job when they move to the US. Unless they're hired abroad for the express purpose of relocating to the US, then it's not "obvious" to me that they've displaced anyone. Suppose I work in an org with dev teams in multiple countries. If I relocate from one site to another, am I freeing up a slot in the country I leave and taking one in the country I move to?
  - theGnuMe 3y ago
    Yes you are doing both actually. There is a special visa for this. In the US it is an L1 visa.
  - 4death4 3y ago
    According to TFA, the discrimination happens when Apple doesn’t adequately look for a U.S. employee and instead chooses to to relocate you to the US. How is that not obvious? If Apple is happy to hire you in the UK and you’re happy to live there, the DOJ isn’t going to ask many questions.
    - izardak 3y ago
      This discussion is about EB2/green card process, not L1/H1 visa that employee is given when relocating to the US. That is why it is not obvoius. In a lot of cases, an employee works in UK (or another European) office for many years, then moves to the US on L1A visa, works there for several years, applies to green card (not with intent to stay in US forever, but because L1 visa (and H1 too) cannot be extended for more than 5/6 years). Then to get this EB2/green card document employer has to pretend that they plan to replace this person who is already working in this organization for 10 or more years. It is not specific for Apple, Intel is doing the same when a CPU architect from Haifa or fab engineer from Dublin is working in Hillsboro for several years and decide to stay for a few more years. Or google bringing someone from Zurich.
janalsncm 3y ago
> There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. Sure there is. The fact that permanent residency costs money and is often desirable means that there is value in a PERM position over a comparable one with no path to permanent residency. Therefore it is only natural for applicants to require less money to find the compensation desirable.

by pavlov 3y ago

microtherion 3y ago

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.

hashtag-til 3y ago
[flagged]
- microtherion 3y ago
  > How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    "I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified" You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring. In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.
    - kbenson 3y ago
      What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? "Power" also seeks competence. There's no one aspect that is sought is enough to to drown out all the others when hiring, at least not without an outside force requiring it. Do employers want employees that are easy to deal with? Obviously. Is that more important then skill and ability? It depends not only on the employer, but also probably the job being hired for, but nobody wants to hire an unqualified candidate over a qualified one.
      - astrange 3y ago
        > What's with people in this thread spouting absolutes as if they aren't obviously full of obvious mistakes and rebuttals? Part of being a Marxist (parent comment) or an anti-immigrationist (grandparent comment) is that you're required to believe any statement anyone makes that has the right words in it. Even though you have no evidence for them.
  - trident5000 3y ago
    Its naive to think expanding the labor pool wouldnt reduce labor costs. Its supply and demand/economics 101. And obviously they (and every other company) is going to complain they cant fill positions locally in order to gain access to this cheaper pool.
    - astrange 3y ago
      If you're posting something is econ 101 you're probably wrong, and you're especially wrong if you claim adding people increases supply but not demand. People ARE demand. Labor economists don't use "econ 101", and importantly they prefer empirical evidence over theory.
- astrange 3y ago
  > starting from sanctioned countries. Is FAANG hiring a lot of people from Cuba, North Korea or Iran? Although Iranians are pretty good at tech and I know a sr. distinguished Iranian engineer at Apple. That's even better than distinguished! Can't beat that.
  - microtherion 3y ago
    I can't recall ever having met a Cuban or North Korean engineer at Apple. But I've worked with some outstanding Iranian engineers. They did not strike me as particularly likely to spy for their country…
  - hashtag-til 3y ago
    If anything, these are small scale… I’m more talking about the wholesale scale from other dictatorship countries, under export control restrictions.
iaseiadit 3y ago
I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.
- throwaway12355 3y ago
  That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.
  - microtherion 3y ago
    I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.
    - hume77 3y ago
      In my 20 years at multiple companies I have rarely seen the Americans not try to create a diverse team. The other ones we all know on the other hand….

sangnoir 3y ago

> Why not give them a path to a green card? Because it's illegal to (positively) discriminate for these people and shield them from competing with American citizens and GC-holders for jobs. > Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? As Apple just found out: creating a fake position to end-run immigration law is illegal.

ericye16 3y ago
I think the point is that immigration law should be changed so companies don't have to jump through hoops like this.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  I too believe there has to be reform, but I also believe this is Apple being lazy/doing this for convenience. If the individuals are more skilled than citizens, the Apple should have been prepared to open the interviews for those jobs to everyone (including citizens and permanent residents), selected the (person they knew to have been) the best and gotten the paperwork in order. The subterfuge would be completely unnecessary if they applied under the correct visa class and skills of those involved are as advertised.
  - bubblethink 3y ago
    There is no such thing as correct class. Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. And almost everyone needs to go through the same process which involves this PERM business. And everyone needs to participate in this charade of hiring someone once, then pretending that they don't have the employee, and then emerging victorious by putting out an ad that only that person satisfies. The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired.
    - sangnoir 3y ago
      > Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. The laws governing immigration are very specific about the distinctions between visa classes and the requirements for each class- and the devil is in the details. > The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired. Perhaps, but that is your and Apple's (tacit) opinions. The government of the United States disagrees, and Apple just paid $25 million dollars to avoid getting this issue in front of a judge. The difference in perspective, AFAICT, is you think a GC is a reward for getting a job after besting others (including citizens) in interviews. The government's contention is that the bar is higher: PERM is for jobs no American citizen or permanent resident are able and willing to do[1]. There are separate visa classes for being merely good, and being irreplaceable. Pretending that a candidate who is in the former group belongs to the latter by posting jobs on a noticeboard in an unlit basement without stairs is dishonest. 1. "The DOL must certify to the USCIS that there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified, and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment"

User23 3y ago

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. This isn’t even wrong. Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

chabons 3y ago
> Obviously you displaced a US citizen [...] I'm not sure this is obvious. 1) Apple is a multi-national company, and hires an employee in the UK. 2) This employee relocates to the US At what point do they displace the US citizen? All Apple jobs are not earmarked for US citizens (+residents, etc...), and they're already doing the job when they move to the US. Unless they're hired abroad for the express purpose of relocating to the US, then it's not "obvious" to me that they've displaced anyone. Suppose I work in an org with dev teams in multiple countries. If I relocate from one site to another, am I freeing up a slot in the country I leave and taking one in the country I move to?
- theGnuMe 3y ago
  Yes you are doing both actually. There is a special visa for this. In the US it is an L1 visa.
- 4death4 3y ago
  According to TFA, the discrimination happens when Apple doesn’t adequately look for a U.S. employee and instead chooses to to relocate you to the US. How is that not obvious? If Apple is happy to hire you in the UK and you’re happy to live there, the DOJ isn’t going to ask many questions.
  - izardak 3y ago
    This discussion is about EB2/green card process, not L1/H1 visa that employee is given when relocating to the US. That is why it is not obvoius. In a lot of cases, an employee works in UK (or another European) office for many years, then moves to the US on L1A visa, works there for several years, applies to green card (not with intent to stay in US forever, but because L1 visa (and H1 too) cannot be extended for more than 5/6 years). Then to get this EB2/green card document employer has to pretend that they plan to replace this person who is already working in this organization for 10 or more years. It is not specific for Apple, Intel is doing the same when a CPU architect from Haifa or fab engineer from Dublin is working in Hillsboro for several years and decide to stay for a few more years. Or google bringing someone from Zurich.

janalsncm 3y ago

> There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. Sure there is. The fact that permanent residency costs money and is often desirable means that there is value in a PERM position over a comparable one with no path to permanent residency. Therefore it is only natural for applicants to require less money to find the compensation desirable.