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Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certifica

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. The money is paid upfront and USCIS then look into it and approves PERM on a case by case basis often taking a year or more. Then when the PERM passes, the applicant can finally get on the green card backlog and wait a few more years, or a decade if you were born in the wrong place... This is to say the quality of applicants here is very high and Apple actually felt it was worth it to invest tens of thousands of dollars on each of them just for a green card gamble, which the employee can get then quit Apple immediately after and nothing can be done to them because they are now a permanent resident. No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2.

giobox 3y ago
> there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. > Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the PERM process applies when H1B holders seek to gain permanent residency too - at least that's been my experience. It also applies to the L1 etc: https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transition-perm-labor-certification/ https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transitio... PERM certification is required to get a GC on an H1B (it's not needed to get an H1B, just required when the H1B holder seeks to get permanent residency). There's another side to this story that the media reporting almost never mentions on this; many in the PERM process have lived in the USA for a long time and established families, children, communities etc. To deny them during PERM literally means in many cases to ship them and their American children "home" to a country they may not have seen for 20 years. In some cases the American kids won't even be able to speak the main language of their parent's birth country. The solution as always is pretty simple - we need to divorce immigration status from employment - the processes should not be linked. This would at a stroke remove incentives for less scrupulous employers to abuse the system too.
- tomohelix 3y ago
  But then you would have issues with how to evaluate the immigrant. You may say degree, work history, other achievements, etc but those are already being used as qualifiers in the current system, in addition to the job requirements. So any attempts at decoupling immigration from employment would be seen as "open border" by many politicians and their bases, i.e. not going to be a reality ever. If even a law trying to let US-educated PhDs getting an H1B easier (just to work, not GC) get blocked, you know how anti-immigration the current political climate is.
dfadsadsf 3y ago
You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k all in. PERM Fees to USCIS are around $1200. The whole system is abused to the end and need to be completely gutted and redone so high end engineer working for Google making $700k was differentiated from Wipro employee making $80k. Right now they are in the same queue. Prevailing wage is a joke as it does not include stock options and does not reflect real salary levels.
- tomohelix 3y ago
  Hilariously enough, a real rocket scientist, e.g. a NASA scientist, has an average salary around 100K. SWE salary is heavily inflated and even the flawed process we have now is better than one where you only look at the absolute amount of compensation. Why, most scientist jobs requiring PhD pay less than 200K. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E7304_D_KO5,14.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E73... https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/senior-scientist-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/senior-scient... I no longer know the current prices for EB2 total cost. But years back I know the cost was >10K+ per employee, accounting for multiple filings, expedited filings, lawyer fee, etc. I doubt it would be below 10K now. Even an NIW can cost 15K easily by going to a law firm and personally haggle the price with them. Can you tell me how do you know EB2 cost less than 10K? An online paper mill graduate would have a very hard time passing EB2 vetting. Where would they get the paper citations, the impact, the achievements required? Unless they have years of experience in which they made clear they are valuable enough to the field. That is why I said experienced masters. And you think USCIS don't look at what institution the applicant comes from?
  - bubblethink 3y ago
    EB2 has separate sub categories. Regular EB2 does not require papers or citations. It just needs an advanced degree or equivalent in experience. The categories that benefit from papers, citations etc., are EB2-NIW and EB1A/B. Those don't require PERM as USCIS takes on the role of the adjudicator there. PERM is handled by Dept. of Labor.
bubblethink 3y ago
>PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process It's not rigorous or demanding; it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank. From the article : It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said. >Apple actually felt it was worth it Apple doesn't feel. It's just commonsense and market pressure. The alternative would be indefinite indentured servitude. Dept. of Labor takes a year to evaluate these PERM applications. PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. All while the employee is already working for the company on a visa. The whole thing is farcical.
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  > PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. Well, that certainly explains why I saw Lucid advertising in a New Orleans free newspaper and applied and got nothing but a rejection.
- jonathankoren 3y ago
  > it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank I love how people always think that The Government™ does things to make money, rather some congressman from the Bible Belt just engaging in straight up xenophobia.
  - bubblethink 3y ago
    I mean the outcome is that it's a lot of wasted time and money. The original motivation for these policies was a pro-labor/protectionist stance in hiring immigrants, but that is completely subverted because there are no restrictions in hiring temp. immigrant workers. This PERM thing only comes up if you want to keep them permanently. The process basically subverts everyone's expectations, disappoints everyone, and just hands gov. and lawyers money.
    - 3y ago
pavlov 3y ago
This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a green card? Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? I’ll admit that I’m biased because I was in this process at one point. But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. So if anything, I brought a UK job to USA. And to turn that into a green card, the company would have to advertise the job on their website. It makes no sense.
- microtherion 3y ago
  > If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.
  - hashtag-til 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - microtherion 3y ago
      > How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.
coliveira 3y ago
There is a reason companies pay for this process: they are allowed to maintain the worker for as long as the process goes. And for many people this can take up to 10 years, depending on nationality. If they have a good employee, it is a no-brainer to pay so they cannot leave the company, under the penalty of having the green card process cancelled or restarted.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  > If they have a good employee I think you mean cheaper employee.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at Google; I saw the mandatory H1-B job postings and there was no difference in comp or requirements between my role and the ones being advertised. Filling out paperwork so that every qualified candidate in the world can work there is the cost of doing business; if there were more qualified applicants, they'd hire more people. To the visaholders, this is just another perk for working at a big tech company. When I clicked the link, I thought this article was going to be something like "non-US citizens get an extra $10k in perks because these companies do all their visa work for them, and US citizens don't need a visa". But it's something much more obscure that doesn't matter.
    - injb 3y ago
      Right but the argument (the good one) isn't that they're paid less - it's that you're paid less because they are available. If US employers couldn't import workers they'd have to pay you more.
      - 3y ago
standardUser 3y ago
> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point You're saying that Apple can't find people from less-developed countries with these specific credentials and then offer them a starting salary that's $100k under what they would have needed to offer to someone from California? > because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2. Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  >Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay. The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility - the bar to hire an H-1B is much higher than to hire a US native worker. Once you have an EB-2 (an immigrant visa, that entitles you to a Green Card), that no longer applies - modulo national-security type positions that require citizenship you're just as hirable as a US native.
  - liquidpele 3y ago
    > The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility There’s more to it than that, but that’s one of the big ones. Have you worked with foreign contractors/outsourcing before? If so you know why jumping to another job would be difficult.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American Wage depression is a function of being willing and able to work in the field, not of residency type. Residency type can only depress individual wages for the person with the odd residency.
sgjohnson 3y ago
> or a decade if you were born in the wrong place... That's being generous. I'm pretty sure that for people born in India the backlog is well over 100 years. The reason being that only 7500 green cards per year can be issued to people of any particular nationality. If there are 750k Indians with approved GC applications under employment category, that's a 100 year backlog. I'm sure there's a statistic somewhere, and I remember reading an article a couple of years back that claimed that this particular backlog has surpassed 90 years, so it's not unthinkable that today it's over 100. EB2 final action date for Indian nationals is currently at 01JAN12. Which means that USCIS is currently processing applications from almost 12 years ago. Which means they have to wait a decade before their application even gets approved. There are people that will quite literally never see an EB2 or EB3 green card in their lives despite having an approved application. The only viable path to a green card for those is marrying a US citizen, period. (as that category has no cap or quota whatsoever)
Lamad1234 3y ago
Immigration is brutal and absurd!! One can waste their whole life waiting for a piece of paper!!!
x86x87 3y ago
there is no such thing as an EB2 visa. EB2 is a category for Green Card. PERM is one stage in the Green Card process. (it goes: PERM -> I140 -> I485. https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-permanent-residence-perm/ https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-pe...) https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/green-card-for-employment-based-immigrants https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/gree...
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.
  - x86x87 3y ago
    Yes, but no. A green card allows you to stay in the US permanently. The only major differences between a green card holder and a citizen are the right to vote and the ability to hold public office.
    - sgjohnson 3y ago
      Yeah, I know that. I was only arguing semantics. :)
deaddodo 3y ago
PERM certification is the closest to corporate brain drain that exists. On top of that, people overlook the O1 visa. Both of these are visas that the regular person just can't compete with. They're for individuals the US wants to drain from another country (and are extraordinarily capable of it) and are given to individuals of high accomplishment. If you're afraid of foreign competition, you should be worried about H1B and similar visas (visas for foreigners willing to slot into a normal "skilled" position), which this article isn't touching on at all. Those are the visas of your peers that companies are willing to hire extranationally.
goodluckchuck 3y ago
Doesn’t that make it worse? That they’ll pursue a far more difficult and costly approach rather than, idk, just try to hire the best candidate for the role?
pandaman 3y ago
EB2 requirements: BS or equivalent + 5 years of progressive experience. Or, alternatively, a very light version of EB-1 "exceptional ability" checklist. The fees are couple grand and the major expense is in interviewing and rejecting enough candidates to justify the need. You seem to be confusing it with EB-1. While it's true these people already work there etc. etc. EB2, just like EB3, requires the DOL certification that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment". [1] This sucks for firms like Apple because there are quite enough U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take a whole bunch of jobs that are being held by a BS with 5 years of experience... Imagine you are an officer of the U.S. government and a lawyer from Apple sends you an application for a, for example, front end developer. Will you honestly believe that there are literally no U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take such a job? At Apple no less. It's not "some folks won't take a job at Apple/FB/Google/etc for political reasons, so there!". It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is? 1. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/programs/permanent https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/programs/perm...
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  > It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is? Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company. Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled. And that’s how it works. Otherwise there would be no need for immigration in this sector at all.
  - pandaman 3y ago
    >Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company. Why don't they count? Already employed people are recruited by Apple, I get spammed by Apple recruiters, I know a dozen of people who had been poached by Apple from various companies. Apple does hire people who are already employed, they pay quite a bit more so many employed people are looking if not for increased prestige then for increased TC. >Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled. I am not sure I follow, this is obviously false on its face. Why exactly can not it be filled?
mbs159 3y ago
> native citizens I hope that by this you mean Native Americans. Or are colonizers now considered native citizens?
- throwawa14223 3y ago
  Native means belonging to a place by birth, as to distinguish from citizens not born here. Colonizer is dehumanizing language.

giobox 3y ago

> there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. > Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the PERM process applies when H1B holders seek to gain permanent residency too - at least that's been my experience. It also applies to the L1 etc: https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transition-perm-labor-certification/ https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transitio... PERM certification is required to get a GC on an H1B (it's not needed to get an H1B, just required when the H1B holder seeks to get permanent residency). There's another side to this story that the media reporting almost never mentions on this; many in the PERM process have lived in the USA for a long time and established families, children, communities etc. To deny them during PERM literally means in many cases to ship them and their American children "home" to a country they may not have seen for 20 years. In some cases the American kids won't even be able to speak the main language of their parent's birth country. The solution as always is pretty simple - we need to divorce immigration status from employment - the processes should not be linked. This would at a stroke remove incentives for less scrupulous employers to abuse the system too.

tomohelix 3y ago
But then you would have issues with how to evaluate the immigrant. You may say degree, work history, other achievements, etc but those are already being used as qualifiers in the current system, in addition to the job requirements. So any attempts at decoupling immigration from employment would be seen as "open border" by many politicians and their bases, i.e. not going to be a reality ever. If even a law trying to let US-educated PhDs getting an H1B easier (just to work, not GC) get blocked, you know how anti-immigration the current political climate is.

dfadsadsf 3y ago

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k all in. PERM Fees to USCIS are around $1200. The whole system is abused to the end and need to be completely gutted and redone so high end engineer working for Google making $700k was differentiated from Wipro employee making $80k. Right now they are in the same queue. Prevailing wage is a joke as it does not include stock options and does not reflect real salary levels.

tomohelix 3y ago
Hilariously enough, a real rocket scientist, e.g. a NASA scientist, has an average salary around 100K. SWE salary is heavily inflated and even the flawed process we have now is better than one where you only look at the absolute amount of compensation. Why, most scientist jobs requiring PhD pay less than 200K. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E7304_D_KO5,14.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E73... https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/senior-scientist-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/senior-scient... I no longer know the current prices for EB2 total cost. But years back I know the cost was >10K+ per employee, accounting for multiple filings, expedited filings, lawyer fee, etc. I doubt it would be below 10K now. Even an NIW can cost 15K easily by going to a law firm and personally haggle the price with them. Can you tell me how do you know EB2 cost less than 10K? An online paper mill graduate would have a very hard time passing EB2 vetting. Where would they get the paper citations, the impact, the achievements required? Unless they have years of experience in which they made clear they are valuable enough to the field. That is why I said experienced masters. And you think USCIS don't look at what institution the applicant comes from?
- bubblethink 3y ago
  EB2 has separate sub categories. Regular EB2 does not require papers or citations. It just needs an advanced degree or equivalent in experience. The categories that benefit from papers, citations etc., are EB2-NIW and EB1A/B. Those don't require PERM as USCIS takes on the role of the adjudicator there. PERM is handled by Dept. of Labor.

bubblethink 3y ago

>PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process It's not rigorous or demanding; it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank. From the article : It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said. >Apple actually felt it was worth it Apple doesn't feel. It's just commonsense and market pressure. The alternative would be indefinite indentured servitude. Dept. of Labor takes a year to evaluate these PERM applications. PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. All while the employee is already working for the company on a visa. The whole thing is farcical.

selimthegrim 3y ago
> PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. Well, that certainly explains why I saw Lucid advertising in a New Orleans free newspaper and applied and got nothing but a rejection.
jonathankoren 3y ago
> it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank I love how people always think that The Government™ does things to make money, rather some congressman from the Bible Belt just engaging in straight up xenophobia.
- bubblethink 3y ago
  I mean the outcome is that it's a lot of wasted time and money. The original motivation for these policies was a pro-labor/protectionist stance in hiring immigrants, but that is completely subverted because there are no restrictions in hiring temp. immigrant workers. This PERM thing only comes up if you want to keep them permanently. The process basically subverts everyone's expectations, disappoints everyone, and just hands gov. and lawyers money.
  - 3y ago

pavlov 3y ago

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a green card? Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? I’ll admit that I’m biased because I was in this process at one point. But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. So if anything, I brought a UK job to USA. And to turn that into a green card, the company would have to advertise the job on their website. It makes no sense.

microtherion 3y ago
> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - microtherion 3y ago
    > How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter. You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified. > The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury. > and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside … forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.

coliveira 3y ago

There is a reason companies pay for this process: they are allowed to maintain the worker for as long as the process goes. And for many people this can take up to 10 years, depending on nationality. If they have a good employee, it is a no-brainer to pay so they cannot leave the company, under the penalty of having the green card process cancelled or restarted.

liquidpele 3y ago
> If they have a good employee I think you mean cheaper employee.
- jrockway 3y ago
  I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at Google; I saw the mandatory H1-B job postings and there was no difference in comp or requirements between my role and the ones being advertised. Filling out paperwork so that every qualified candidate in the world can work there is the cost of doing business; if there were more qualified applicants, they'd hire more people. To the visaholders, this is just another perk for working at a big tech company. When I clicked the link, I thought this article was going to be something like "non-US citizens get an extra $10k in perks because these companies do all their visa work for them, and US citizens don't need a visa". But it's something much more obscure that doesn't matter.
  - injb 3y ago
    Right but the argument (the good one) isn't that they're paid less - it's that you're paid less because they are available. If US employers couldn't import workers they'd have to pay you more.
    - 3y ago

standardUser 3y ago

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point You're saying that Apple can't find people from less-developed countries with these specific credentials and then offer them a starting salary that's $100k under what they would have needed to offer to someone from California? > because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2. Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
>Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay. The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility - the bar to hire an H-1B is much higher than to hire a US native worker. Once you have an EB-2 (an immigrant visa, that entitles you to a Green Card), that no longer applies - modulo national-security type positions that require citizenship you're just as hirable as a US native.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  > The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility There’s more to it than that, but that’s one of the big ones. Have you worked with foreign contractors/outsourcing before? If so you know why jumping to another job would be difficult.

thaumasiotes 3y ago

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American Wage depression is a function of being willing and able to work in the field, not of residency type. Residency type can only depress individual wages for the person with the odd residency.

sgjohnson 3y ago

> or a decade if you were born in the wrong place... That's being generous. I'm pretty sure that for people born in India the backlog is well over 100 years. The reason being that only 7500 green cards per year can be issued to people of any particular nationality. If there are 750k Indians with approved GC applications under employment category, that's a 100 year backlog. I'm sure there's a statistic somewhere, and I remember reading an article a couple of years back that claimed that this particular backlog has surpassed 90 years, so it's not unthinkable that today it's over 100. EB2 final action date for Indian nationals is currently at 01JAN12. Which means that USCIS is currently processing applications from almost 12 years ago. Which means they have to wait a decade before their application even gets approved. There are people that will quite literally never see an EB2 or EB3 green card in their lives despite having an approved application. The only viable path to a green card for those is marrying a US citizen, period. (as that category has no cap or quota whatsoever)

Lamad1234 3y ago

Immigration is brutal and absurd!! One can waste their whole life waiting for a piece of paper!!!

x86x87 3y ago

there is no such thing as an EB2 visa. EB2 is a category for Green Card. PERM is one stage in the Green Card process. (it goes: PERM -> I140 -> I485. https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-permanent-residence-perm/ https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-pe...) https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/green-card-for-employment-based-immigrants https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/gree...

sgjohnson 3y ago
Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.
- x86x87 3y ago
  Yes, but no. A green card allows you to stay in the US permanently. The only major differences between a green card holder and a citizen are the right to vote and the ability to hold public office.
  - sgjohnson 3y ago
    Yeah, I know that. I was only arguing semantics. :)

deaddodo 3y ago

PERM certification is the closest to corporate brain drain that exists. On top of that, people overlook the O1 visa. Both of these are visas that the regular person just can't compete with. They're for individuals the US wants to drain from another country (and are extraordinarily capable of it) and are given to individuals of high accomplishment. If you're afraid of foreign competition, you should be worried about H1B and similar visas (visas for foreigners willing to slot into a normal "skilled" position), which this article isn't touching on at all. Those are the visas of your peers that companies are willing to hire extranationally.

goodluckchuck 3y ago

Doesn’t that make it worse? That they’ll pursue a far more difficult and costly approach rather than, idk, just try to hire the best candidate for the role?

pandaman 3y ago

EB2 requirements: BS or equivalent + 5 years of progressive experience. Or, alternatively, a very light version of EB-1 "exceptional ability" checklist. The fees are couple grand and the major expense is in interviewing and rejecting enough candidates to justify the need. You seem to be confusing it with EB-1. While it's true these people already work there etc. etc. EB2, just like EB3, requires the DOL certification that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment". [1] This sucks for firms like Apple because there are quite enough U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take a whole bunch of jobs that are being held by a BS with 5 years of experience... Imagine you are an officer of the U.S. government and a lawyer from Apple sends you an application for a, for example, front end developer. Will you honestly believe that there are literally no U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take such a job? At Apple no less. It's not "some folks won't take a job at Apple/FB/Google/etc for political reasons, so there!". It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is? 1. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/programs/permanent https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/programs/perm...

sgjohnson 3y ago
> It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is? Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company. Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled. And that’s how it works. Otherwise there would be no need for immigration in this sector at all.
- pandaman 3y ago
  >Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company. Why don't they count? Already employed people are recruited by Apple, I get spammed by Apple recruiters, I know a dozen of people who had been poached by Apple from various companies. Apple does hire people who are already employed, they pay quite a bit more so many employed people are looking if not for increased prestige then for increased TC. >Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled. I am not sure I follow, this is obviously false on its face. Why exactly can not it be filled?

mbs159 3y ago

> native citizens I hope that by this you mean Native Americans. Or are colonizers now considered native citizens?

throwawa14223 3y ago
Native means belonging to a place by birth, as to distinguish from citizens not born here. Colonizer is dehumanizing language.