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Wait, "generally considered a right-wing talking point" is this real? Like it's even a bigger problem in Asia than in North America. Looking at demographics, as

by kredd 3y ago

Wait, "generally considered a right-wing talking point" is this real? Like it's even a bigger problem in Asia than in North America. Looking at demographics, as you mentioned, it's going to be a problem in Africa as well. I'm fairly pro-immigration, but I assumed everyone understands it's a bandaid solution that won't last once everyone experiences population decrease? I think I mentioned it in my other comments as well, that I could see a case where they start limiting emigration from countries where young people would be fleeing to other developed countries. Regarding normalizing low fertility - I mean, it's not my place to tell anyone whether to have kids or not. I am not planning to have one anytime soon either for myriad of reasons, but this reverse "tragedy of commons" problem itself is also one of the reasons. But yeah, was hoping I could find more reading where real work is being done to see how we will sustain ourselves with aged population.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> Wait, "generally considered a right-wing talking point" is this real? Yes, at least within the US and the UK. In the US, it's definitely an issue that, if talked about at all, is 100% within the realm of the GOP, and in the UK (as far as I can follow its politics) a Tory thing. The issue is big in Japan and South Korea (China too), and I don't know how it maps to their politics. Would be easier to tell in places like Germany where they have a well-defined "right-wing", but language barriers make it difficult for me to determine. > but I assumed everyone understands it's a bandaid solution that won't last once everyone experiences population decrease? Have a conversation about it sometime. Here on Hackernews, elsewhere. Everyone is in either some strange form of denial or maybe ignorance about it, and refuse to acknowledge it. Apparently there is this magical, infinite well of people that we can just import to make up the difference that will never, ever go away, and if it does go away... aw well shucks, that's not so bad. And if it is bad, I'm glad the human race is going extinct anyway, they've harmed the planet. > Regarding normalizing low fertility - I mean, it's not my place to tell anyone whether to have kids or not. I'm a father. It is my place to say this, and I have. Since the very first day, well before they understood what the words were saying. I don't just love my children, I like them. I want them to go out and make little half-clones of themselves someday. And anyone telling them they shouldn't is a monster. > But yeah, was hoping I could find more reading where real work is being done There are some instinctive reactions to this at the collective level. Various groups are withdrawing from society as much as possible to (in my hypothesis) quarantine their families from the contagion of these ideas. Homeschoolers, those trying to get away from cities and run off to the wilderness. I do not think they'll find much success. The biggest culprit, electronics, can't be easily taken away from children without crippling their economic success in adulthood, which is necessary if they are to become particularly fertile. This is a complete shitshow. It's a slow motion train wreck that is, somehow, still too fast to escape. I do not know if it is a human extinction thing, or if we just end up reverting to some pre-tehchnological subsistence thing, but if they're still around your descendants 1000 years from now might look like cavemen.
- ponector 3y ago
  For top 10 wealthiest counties immigration pool will not drop. But poor countries are doomed. With increased population decline they will be even poorer, more people will want to emigrate.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Not just poor countries, but poor areas inside rich countries. The demographics of the small rural town I grew up in are getting older and poorer every year, as young people move out into the cities where there is opportunity.
tuatoru 3y ago
Just reinforcing NoMoreNicksLeft, this is definitely considered a right wing talking point in the US. On hearing about this leftists immediately jump to "you want to roll back the gains of feminism, keep women in the home, blah blah". What we need is to rearrange culture and institutions so that women wish to have children young, and so that they are valorized or at least not penalized in terms of career prospects or lifetime earnings for doing so. In relation to men, but even more so in relation to women who choose not to have children. I have no idea how to go about doing that.
- kredd 3y ago
  I think I am miswording the question — I don’t care about fixing the trends. My worry us to be prepared for the case if we can’t fix the problem. Basically “how we can prepare society to live with less younger population?”.

by kredd 3y ago

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> Wait, "generally considered a right-wing talking point" is this real? Yes, at least within the US and the UK. In the US, it's definitely an issue that, if talked about at all, is 100% within the realm of the GOP, and in the UK (as far as I can follow its politics) a Tory thing. The issue is big in Japan and South Korea (China too), and I don't know how it maps to their politics. Would be easier to tell in places like Germany where they have a well-defined "right-wing", but language barriers make it difficult for me to determine. > but I assumed everyone understands it's a bandaid solution that won't last once everyone experiences population decrease? Have a conversation about it sometime. Here on Hackernews, elsewhere. Everyone is in either some strange form of denial or maybe ignorance about it, and refuse to acknowledge it. Apparently there is this magical, infinite well of people that we can just import to make up the difference that will never, ever go away, and if it does go away... aw well shucks, that's not so bad. And if it is bad, I'm glad the human race is going extinct anyway, they've harmed the planet. > Regarding normalizing low fertility - I mean, it's not my place to tell anyone whether to have kids or not. I'm a father. It is my place to say this, and I have. Since the very first day, well before they understood what the words were saying. I don't just love my children, I like them. I want them to go out and make little half-clones of themselves someday. And anyone telling them they shouldn't is a monster. > But yeah, was hoping I could find more reading where real work is being done There are some instinctive reactions to this at the collective level. Various groups are withdrawing from society as much as possible to (in my hypothesis) quarantine their families from the contagion of these ideas. Homeschoolers, those trying to get away from cities and run off to the wilderness. I do not think they'll find much success. The biggest culprit, electronics, can't be easily taken away from children without crippling their economic success in adulthood, which is necessary if they are to become particularly fertile. This is a complete shitshow. It's a slow motion train wreck that is, somehow, still too fast to escape. I do not know if it is a human extinction thing, or if we just end up reverting to some pre-tehchnological subsistence thing, but if they're still around your descendants 1000 years from now might look like cavemen.

ponector 3y ago
For top 10 wealthiest counties immigration pool will not drop. But poor countries are doomed. With increased population decline they will be even poorer, more people will want to emigrate.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Not just poor countries, but poor areas inside rich countries. The demographics of the small rural town I grew up in are getting older and poorer every year, as young people move out into the cities where there is opportunity.

tuatoru 3y ago

Just reinforcing NoMoreNicksLeft, this is definitely considered a right wing talking point in the US. On hearing about this leftists immediately jump to "you want to roll back the gains of feminism, keep women in the home, blah blah". What we need is to rearrange culture and institutions so that women wish to have children young, and so that they are valorized or at least not penalized in terms of career prospects or lifetime earnings for doing so. In relation to men, but even more so in relation to women who choose not to have children. I have no idea how to go about doing that.

kredd 3y ago
I think I am miswording the question — I don’t care about fixing the trends. My worry us to be prepared for the case if we can’t fix the problem. Basically “how we can prepare society to live with less younger population?”.