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It seems that many people disregard the fact that PHP is a very accessible language to a programming newcomer. You can quickly and easily install LAMP or MAMP a

It seems that many people disregard the fact that PHP is a very accessible language to a programming newcomer. You can quickly and easily install LAMP or MAMP and in minutes have a working, dynamic web page (albeit local) along with a plethora of examples and tutorials. This is huge. This shows the newcomer that this mysterious code stuff is actually accessible; that they can create something that works. That's a nice intro to programming. More programmers===better programs. How can this be a bad thing? As far as the snobbery goes, to me it just seems like natural human behavior. People need to believe that their beliefs, their choices are the right ones. For some, the easiest way to do that--rather than being honestly objective or introspective--is to degrade what others do.

BCM43 15y ago
More programmers===better programs. How can this be a bad thing? I'm not sure this is true. Going with the articles example, that's like saying "the more people who know how to use a hammer, the better houses we will have".
- obituary_latte 15y ago
  OK, say there were only 2 people working on the (any open-source project). How do you think it would look today? I think it pretty basic an assumption that the more eyes looking at something, the better the chances of finding (and fixing) mistakes as well as finding room for improvement.
- smokinjoe 15y ago
  No, but the more kids who have exposure to an easy-to-get-started language will result in more kids that are actually really into it getting that early start they need.
- TylerE 15y ago
  It's true in the sense that giving everyone desktop publishing software in the early 90s led to lots of beautiful typography and well thought-out layouts.
  - TorbjornLunde 15y ago
    I assume that you are being ironic, and you’re right: there was a lot of ugly graphic design in the 90s. This is partially due to the whole grunge-trend… However: I think today we have more beautiful design that we would have had if the design tools had not become democratized, maybe not in percentage, but certainly in amount. My speculation: programming --> more programs. Both crap and great ones.
- smsm42 15y ago
  Are you claiming less people should have access to programming? Should we have a guild with mandatory 10-year apprenticeship in Haskell?
  - prodigal_erik 15y ago
    That's kind of over the top, but I'd like to see everyone spend their first six months in any language that doesn't hide your mistakes from you by quietly guessing what you might have wanted and doing something random.
- joesb 15y ago
  Less people should have access to computer, it will make those who does more competent at programming.
acdha 15y ago
I agree with the general point but this seems more of an indictment of other languages than a plus for PHP: with PHP, it's easy to get started with the most simple features - and then it takes years to learn how to cope with the language quirks and inconsistencies, deal with outright bugs, and learn a number of non-obvious ways in which your “working” site might be hacked due to a hidden language feature. There are two ways in which this could be dealt with: one would be for PHP to have a change of religion by the core developers and start a massive cleanup project fixing API warts, adding placeholders to or deprecating the default MySQL driver, etc. This wouldn't be easy but it wouldn't be especially difficult except that the core developers are usually hostile to suggestions that they fix, or even document, mistakes. The other would be for other languages to start simplifying the learning process - Google AppEngine is probably the easiest intro of all, albeit with a severely non-standard architecture, Rails.app, etc. I think a language like Python or Ruby is likely to gain a smooth dev server install before PHP becomes less treacherous. (Pro-PHP flamers: I started using PHP back in 1999. Your arguments are not new.)
- obituary_latte 15y ago
  Yes, that would be great. An alternative intro would be most welcome. It should, though: - Be able to start and serve in minutes, across most platforms - Allow for portable code e.g. the code you create locally should be able to be ported over to an actual webhost with only [S]FTP. - Not require the command line to "work". At all. I tried to learn django ~a year ago, and it was an experience wrought with frustration and pitfalls. The documentation was so-so, and limited in resources (or I couldn't find it). The main trouble was getting all the packages/dependencies correct. I am quite comfortable with linux and terminal (again thanks to PHP), and though I eventually got it working, I was turned off enough by the whole process that I didn't do anything with it. My accomplishment was that I got it to work, which for me was certainly still worthwhile as I was still learning, but a newcomer would likely have gone back to Facebooking long before that... What is dangerous about the PHP bashing in my eyes (speaking with some current experience as a newb), is when someone decides to try and learn programming and they google some stuff about PHP and read endless diatribes on how horrible it is. So they go off and try django or RoR, are met with tough situations with little to no documentation; can't get anything to work, and give up all together. Whether or not PHP is pretty, it is accessible. The divide that is created by language ideology only serves to hurt the community as a whole, IMO.
pratyksp 15y ago
Very low barrier to entry is also one of the reason why PHP ecosystem sucks. More than 95% of PHP programmers never grow up from beginner(at least what I've seen) even after more than few years of use. And those who grow up starts to use other language. The PHP crowd is mostly filled with "Internet Programmers" [A person who copies code from the internet and pastes in one's codebase, without even reading it, and expects it to work.] And this also applies to all the javascript programmers who can download a jquery plugin and successfully use it in a website. They even don't know that you can install PHP, apache and mysql separately and use it. For them XAMPP is all there it is, armed with dreamweaver and a ftp client. Most of them will be lost without cpanel. I've tried teaching a few but all I get is :"go away don't try to be smart in front of me, I know what I'm doing." Most of you here are smart people. But out there this is what you get from most of the PHP programmers.
- jtc331 15y ago
  Exactly. I don't actually agree that low barrier to entry is a good thing. Languages should be easy for people who've learned them, not necessarily easy for newbies. That's the real idea with the principle of least surprise. It shouldn't surprise experts. But programming is hard. It's modeling real world processes in the abstract. That's hard. It isn't going to be simple for people who don't know how to program.

BCM43 15y ago

More programmers===better programs. How can this be a bad thing? I'm not sure this is true. Going with the articles example, that's like saying "the more people who know how to use a hammer, the better houses we will have".

obituary_latte 15y ago
OK, say there were only 2 people working on the (any open-source project). How do you think it would look today? I think it pretty basic an assumption that the more eyes looking at something, the better the chances of finding (and fixing) mistakes as well as finding room for improvement.
smokinjoe 15y ago
No, but the more kids who have exposure to an easy-to-get-started language will result in more kids that are actually really into it getting that early start they need.
TylerE 15y ago
It's true in the sense that giving everyone desktop publishing software in the early 90s led to lots of beautiful typography and well thought-out layouts.
- TorbjornLunde 15y ago
  I assume that you are being ironic, and you’re right: there was a lot of ugly graphic design in the 90s. This is partially due to the whole grunge-trend… However: I think today we have more beautiful design that we would have had if the design tools had not become democratized, maybe not in percentage, but certainly in amount. My speculation: programming --> more programs. Both crap and great ones.
smsm42 15y ago
Are you claiming less people should have access to programming? Should we have a guild with mandatory 10-year apprenticeship in Haskell?
- prodigal_erik 15y ago
  That's kind of over the top, but I'd like to see everyone spend their first six months in any language that doesn't hide your mistakes from you by quietly guessing what you might have wanted and doing something random.
joesb 15y ago
Less people should have access to computer, it will make those who does more competent at programming.

acdha 15y ago

I agree with the general point but this seems more of an indictment of other languages than a plus for PHP: with PHP, it's easy to get started with the most simple features - and then it takes years to learn how to cope with the language quirks and inconsistencies, deal with outright bugs, and learn a number of non-obvious ways in which your “working” site might be hacked due to a hidden language feature. There are two ways in which this could be dealt with: one would be for PHP to have a change of religion by the core developers and start a massive cleanup project fixing API warts, adding placeholders to or deprecating the default MySQL driver, etc. This wouldn't be easy but it wouldn't be especially difficult except that the core developers are usually hostile to suggestions that they fix, or even document, mistakes. The other would be for other languages to start simplifying the learning process - Google AppEngine is probably the easiest intro of all, albeit with a severely non-standard architecture, Rails.app, etc. I think a language like Python or Ruby is likely to gain a smooth dev server install before PHP becomes less treacherous. (Pro-PHP flamers: I started using PHP back in 1999. Your arguments are not new.)

obituary_latte 15y ago
Yes, that would be great. An alternative intro would be most welcome. It should, though: - Be able to start and serve in minutes, across most platforms - Allow for portable code e.g. the code you create locally should be able to be ported over to an actual webhost with only [S]FTP. - Not require the command line to "work". At all. I tried to learn django ~a year ago, and it was an experience wrought with frustration and pitfalls. The documentation was so-so, and limited in resources (or I couldn't find it). The main trouble was getting all the packages/dependencies correct. I am quite comfortable with linux and terminal (again thanks to PHP), and though I eventually got it working, I was turned off enough by the whole process that I didn't do anything with it. My accomplishment was that I got it to work, which for me was certainly still worthwhile as I was still learning, but a newcomer would likely have gone back to Facebooking long before that... What is dangerous about the PHP bashing in my eyes (speaking with some current experience as a newb), is when someone decides to try and learn programming and they google some stuff about PHP and read endless diatribes on how horrible it is. So they go off and try django or RoR, are met with tough situations with little to no documentation; can't get anything to work, and give up all together. Whether or not PHP is pretty, it is accessible. The divide that is created by language ideology only serves to hurt the community as a whole, IMO.

pratyksp 15y ago

Very low barrier to entry is also one of the reason why PHP ecosystem sucks. More than 95% of PHP programmers never grow up from beginner(at least what I've seen) even after more than few years of use. And those who grow up starts to use other language. The PHP crowd is mostly filled with "Internet Programmers" [A person who copies code from the internet and pastes in one's codebase, without even reading it, and expects it to work.] And this also applies to all the javascript programmers who can download a jquery plugin and successfully use it in a website. They even don't know that you can install PHP, apache and mysql separately and use it. For them XAMPP is all there it is, armed with dreamweaver and a ftp client. Most of them will be lost without cpanel. I've tried teaching a few but all I get is :"go away don't try to be smart in front of me, I know what I'm doing." Most of you here are smart people. But out there this is what you get from most of the PHP programmers.

jtc331 15y ago
Exactly. I don't actually agree that low barrier to entry is a good thing. Languages should be easy for people who've learned them, not necessarily easy for newbies. That's the real idea with the principle of least surprise. It shouldn't surprise experts. But programming is hard. It's modeling real world processes in the abstract. That's hard. It isn't going to be simple for people who don't know how to program.