6 ms·

Oh no!! What will they do??

by vore 3y ago

meepmorp 3y ago
Double down on invading their neighbors?
- lionkor 3y ago
  Classy. FYI the population is not invading, the government and military is. You can go there and take a look, its not too hard to go and see that the people are normal people like anyone else. You can even talk to them.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/russians-are-split-over-benefits-military-action-ukraine https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/rus... > At the same time, support for the Russian military action has neither increased nor decreased. Three in four Russians (76%) continue to say they support the military operation, with 43 percent expressing strong support and 33 percent somewhat supporting it. Apologies if I accidentally condemn the 24% of Russians who aren't neofascists (and yet, can't be bothered to protest, lest the state get upset).
    - orphea 3y ago
      > and yet, can't be bothered to protest You go to prison for making anti-war statements in Russia, you know? https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/11/08/prosecution-requests-eight-year-sentence-for-sasha-skochilenko-st-petersburg-artist-who-replaced-price-tags-with-information-about-war-in-ukraine https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/11/08/prosecution-requests-ei... Eight. Fucking. Years. For some anti-war price tags. The same sentence you get if you plant drugs as a group of corrupted cops. https://meduza.io/en/news/2021/06/07/ex-police-officers-convicted-in-the-golunov-case-challenge-verdict https://meduza.io/en/news/2021/06/07/ex-police-officers-conv...
      - justrealist 3y ago
        Yes, that is my point. Russian liberals are only anemically willing to be anti-war when that stance cannot personally hurt them, and certainly not opposed enough that they are willing to leave Russia. It may shock you to know that in some countries[1], dissidents have been willing to take personal risk of jail time to make their voice heard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela
        orphea 3y ago
        It may shock you to know that in some countries[1][2], dissidents have been willing to take personal risk of jail time to make their voice heard. Or being killed. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Yashin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Yashin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov
        justrealist 3y ago
        [dead]
        orbital-decay 3y ago
        I don't think the poster above paints anyone in any light, but of course everybody hears what they want to hear. >- Are they, as a majority people, engaging in inexcusable wars of conquest, with close to 0 professed empathy for what they are doing? Yes. That's nationalistic hogwash. You're forcefully drawing the group identity line by the nationality/citizenship. That's a perceived line which doesn't exist in reality.
        justrealist 3y ago
        Maybe that's not the line you want to matter, but if you talk to the actual human beings, they are going to self-identify as "Russian" not "Citizens of the Earth".
    - LtWorf 3y ago
      Did you protest for iraq? edit: I see from the downvotes that the ethical rules that apply to russian civilians do not apply to USA civilians, for some unknown reason.
      - orbital-decay 3y ago
        I don't know the poster you're replying to, but the protests against the Iraq invasion were massive, both in the US and worldwide. [1] It happened regardless. (although admittedly the protesters weren't in any physical danger, and there was much less will to punish those who started the invasion afterwards, moreover the person directly responsible for it is currently a president). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War
      - justrealist 3y ago
        Invading Iraq was a mistake but I'm not going to let you try to morally equate the invasion of Ukraine and Iraq. One was an illconceived and halfassed attempt to remove an explicitly genocidal dictator, with the goal of replacing him with some fantasy liberal democracy. The other is an attempt to eliminate a democratically elected government, permanently annex territory, and culturally and linguistically subsume Ukraine into Russia by any means necessary. It's not the same.
        LtWorf 3y ago
        Well it wasn't democratic enough to pass the EU standards before the war, although now everyone seems prone to doing exceptions.
    - lionkor 3y ago
      Yes, accidentally discriminating a group of people based on something they have nothing to do with is a huge issue, and can lead to a lot of shit we should have learned from in history
  - resource0x 3y ago
    Did you talk to them? Based on your location, I can guess your sample is not representative. There's overwhelming support for the invasion. People are brainwashed by propaganda. I had to unsubscribe from Russian social networks - I can't stomach the posts by my old friends.
    - rpmisms 3y ago
      By that logic, every American who supported the Iraq invasion should be debanked. Whether or not the people support the government in their actions, they are not responsible for their government's actions. I'm ethnically Russian, my entire family lives in Russia, and facing racism due to the actions of some other people is really strange. I thought we were better than this, or at least pretended to be. Edit, yes, it's racism. I don't care about whatever power structure you imagine to be necessary, it's in the dictionary.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        I'm very sorry to hear that. It's almost an evolutionary bug to make shortcuts and consider all members of a misbehaving group evil. There's very little anybody can do about it.
      - resource0x 3y ago
        "Russian people overwhelmingly support the invasion" is a statement of fact - which is based on overwhelming evidence (this includes personal communications). I'm not talking about the government. At the same time, I'm not familiar with any evidence any Russian living abroad is facing "racism". (Most of my family live in US/Canada/Australia).
        rpmisms 3y ago
        Yeah, I support the invasion too. I don't tell people that in my real life, because I'm not stupid. Donbass basin had a shit time of it and Russia was morally correct to step in. Also Ukraine is corrupt. I'm sorry for the Ukrop people, because they also should not pay for the actions of their government. I'm in the US, and I just pretend I'm Polish if people ask what kind of Slav I am. Russian gets the shitty comments and nasty remarks.
  - scrps 3y ago
    Super weird then since putin has taken greater than 50% of the votes since 2000 (nearly 80% in the last election) Maybe some Russians don't want to sleep in the bed they made.
    - drdaeman 3y ago
      > nearly 80% in the last election You forgot to put the quotes around the term "election". Elections in authoritarian states are just a mockery of the term. It was repeatedly mathematically proven that every recent election in Russia was rigged.
      - scrps 3y ago
        So they didn't vote for him but they also don't revolt... With the russian military bogged down in Ukraine seems like the right time to throw one. Edit: Clarity
        drdaeman 3y ago
        > but they also don't revolt There were numerous protests, and they all were suppressed. > With the russian military bogged down in Ukraine seems like the right time to throw one. An uprising is not a likely event in a highly atomized society where no one trusts anyone. And Russians were trained to distrust anyone but themselves and their immediate family for at least a century. Plus, there are plenty of siloviki working on internal affairs, protecting the regime. Witch hunts are all-high since '30s there.
        scrps 3y ago
        These people were also brought up under the soviet system... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
        drdaeman 3y ago
        Yes, they were. Ukrainians managed to recover from the Soviet legacy and do the right thing, and Russians failed miserably. Russian society is atomized and Ukrainian is apparently not. And there's probably no single reason why the history is the way it is. It's absolutely not like "Soviets were there and that's why it is the way it is". There's probably not even two or three or four reasons why - but some complex set of causes and effects that led the world to where it is today. Don't get me wrong, please. I'm not absolving the responsibility by blaming Soviets for Russian problems. I'm just mentioning one of the potential factors, saying that Soviets had contributed to this. Soviet legacy is probably way less important than Putin's years. Since USSR fell, Ukrainian people had elected 6 presidents, and Russia had something like two and a half, all hereditary preemniks to each other (and - again - that's not a particular reason why things are the way they are, just another indicator of how different two post-Soviet countries are). I guess, I should've been more concise and just said that in an atomized society, uprising is considered to be an unlikely event - without trying to delve into reasons why Russian society is atomized.
  - pshirshov 3y ago
    They aren't normal anymore. From my observations, 43 out of 51 people I questioned do support the war in various forms, many even making donations. It wasn't like that in the beginning but now they say that they have to. Even so-called opposition (pro-Navalny people) say things like "if Navalny was a president, we won't be humiliated because he would win the war quickly".
    - lionkor 3y ago
      Thats still not everyone, you see? Theres a massive difference between "everyone who is X is also Y" and "most people who are X are also Y", because the latter means that assuming everyone who is X is Y is discrimination no different from other kinds of discrimination from history.
  - kubiton 3y ago
    Classy? Let's just take the responsibility of yourself and transfer it to some magic place called 'someone else's problem' and you get the shit we have today.

Oh no!! What will they do??

by vore 3y ago

Oh no!! What will they do??

meepmorp 3y ago

Double down on invading their neighbors?

lionkor 3y ago
Classy. FYI the population is not invading, the government and military is. You can go there and take a look, its not too hard to go and see that the people are normal people like anyone else. You can even talk to them.
- justrealist 3y ago
  https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/russians-are-split-over-benefits-military-action-ukraine https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/rus... > At the same time, support for the Russian military action has neither increased nor decreased. Three in four Russians (76%) continue to say they support the military operation, with 43 percent expressing strong support and 33 percent somewhat supporting it. Apologies if I accidentally condemn the 24% of Russians who aren't neofascists (and yet, can't be bothered to protest, lest the state get upset).
  - orphea 3y ago
    > and yet, can't be bothered to protest You go to prison for making anti-war statements in Russia, you know? https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/11/08/prosecution-requests-eight-year-sentence-for-sasha-skochilenko-st-petersburg-artist-who-replaced-price-tags-with-information-about-war-in-ukraine https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/11/08/prosecution-requests-ei... Eight. Fucking. Years. For some anti-war price tags. The same sentence you get if you plant drugs as a group of corrupted cops. https://meduza.io/en/news/2021/06/07/ex-police-officers-convicted-in-the-golunov-case-challenge-verdict https://meduza.io/en/news/2021/06/07/ex-police-officers-conv...
    - justrealist 3y ago
      Yes, that is my point. Russian liberals are only anemically willing to be anti-war when that stance cannot personally hurt them, and certainly not opposed enough that they are willing to leave Russia. It may shock you to know that in some countries[1], dissidents have been willing to take personal risk of jail time to make their voice heard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela
      - orphea 3y ago
        It may shock you to know that in some countries[1][2], dissidents have been willing to take personal risk of jail time to make their voice heard. Or being killed. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Yashin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Yashin [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov
        justrealist 3y ago
        [dead]
        orbital-decay 3y ago
        I don't think the poster above paints anyone in any light, but of course everybody hears what they want to hear. >- Are they, as a majority people, engaging in inexcusable wars of conquest, with close to 0 professed empathy for what they are doing? Yes. That's nationalistic hogwash. You're forcefully drawing the group identity line by the nationality/citizenship. That's a perceived line which doesn't exist in reality.
        justrealist 3y ago
        Maybe that's not the line you want to matter, but if you talk to the actual human beings, they are going to self-identify as "Russian" not "Citizens of the Earth".
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    Did you protest for iraq? edit: I see from the downvotes that the ethical rules that apply to russian civilians do not apply to USA civilians, for some unknown reason.
    - orbital-decay 3y ago
      I don't know the poster you're replying to, but the protests against the Iraq invasion were massive, both in the US and worldwide. [1] It happened regardless. (although admittedly the protesters weren't in any physical danger, and there was much less will to punish those who started the invasion afterwards, moreover the person directly responsible for it is currently a president). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War
    - justrealist 3y ago
      Invading Iraq was a mistake but I'm not going to let you try to morally equate the invasion of Ukraine and Iraq. One was an illconceived and halfassed attempt to remove an explicitly genocidal dictator, with the goal of replacing him with some fantasy liberal democracy. The other is an attempt to eliminate a democratically elected government, permanently annex territory, and culturally and linguistically subsume Ukraine into Russia by any means necessary. It's not the same.
      - LtWorf 3y ago
        Well it wasn't democratic enough to pass the EU standards before the war, although now everyone seems prone to doing exceptions.
  - lionkor 3y ago
    Yes, accidentally discriminating a group of people based on something they have nothing to do with is a huge issue, and can lead to a lot of shit we should have learned from in history
- resource0x 3y ago
  Did you talk to them? Based on your location, I can guess your sample is not representative. There's overwhelming support for the invasion. People are brainwashed by propaganda. I had to unsubscribe from Russian social networks - I can't stomach the posts by my old friends.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    By that logic, every American who supported the Iraq invasion should be debanked. Whether or not the people support the government in their actions, they are not responsible for their government's actions. I'm ethnically Russian, my entire family lives in Russia, and facing racism due to the actions of some other people is really strange. I thought we were better than this, or at least pretended to be. Edit, yes, it's racism. I don't care about whatever power structure you imagine to be necessary, it's in the dictionary.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
      I'm very sorry to hear that. It's almost an evolutionary bug to make shortcuts and consider all members of a misbehaving group evil. There's very little anybody can do about it.
    - resource0x 3y ago
      "Russian people overwhelmingly support the invasion" is a statement of fact - which is based on overwhelming evidence (this includes personal communications). I'm not talking about the government. At the same time, I'm not familiar with any evidence any Russian living abroad is facing "racism". (Most of my family live in US/Canada/Australia).
      - rpmisms 3y ago
        Yeah, I support the invasion too. I don't tell people that in my real life, because I'm not stupid. Donbass basin had a shit time of it and Russia was morally correct to step in. Also Ukraine is corrupt. I'm sorry for the Ukrop people, because they also should not pay for the actions of their government. I'm in the US, and I just pretend I'm Polish if people ask what kind of Slav I am. Russian gets the shitty comments and nasty remarks.
- scrps 3y ago
  Super weird then since putin has taken greater than 50% of the votes since 2000 (nearly 80% in the last election) Maybe some Russians don't want to sleep in the bed they made.
  - drdaeman 3y ago
    > nearly 80% in the last election You forgot to put the quotes around the term "election". Elections in authoritarian states are just a mockery of the term. It was repeatedly mathematically proven that every recent election in Russia was rigged.
    - scrps 3y ago
      So they didn't vote for him but they also don't revolt... With the russian military bogged down in Ukraine seems like the right time to throw one. Edit: Clarity
      - drdaeman 3y ago
        > but they also don't revolt There were numerous protests, and they all were suppressed. > With the russian military bogged down in Ukraine seems like the right time to throw one. An uprising is not a likely event in a highly atomized society where no one trusts anyone. And Russians were trained to distrust anyone but themselves and their immediate family for at least a century. Plus, there are plenty of siloviki working on internal affairs, protecting the regime. Witch hunts are all-high since '30s there.
        scrps 3y ago
        These people were also brought up under the soviet system... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
        drdaeman 3y ago
        Yes, they were. Ukrainians managed to recover from the Soviet legacy and do the right thing, and Russians failed miserably. Russian society is atomized and Ukrainian is apparently not. And there's probably no single reason why the history is the way it is. It's absolutely not like "Soviets were there and that's why it is the way it is". There's probably not even two or three or four reasons why - but some complex set of causes and effects that led the world to where it is today. Don't get me wrong, please. I'm not absolving the responsibility by blaming Soviets for Russian problems. I'm just mentioning one of the potential factors, saying that Soviets had contributed to this. Soviet legacy is probably way less important than Putin's years. Since USSR fell, Ukrainian people had elected 6 presidents, and Russia had something like two and a half, all hereditary preemniks to each other (and - again - that's not a particular reason why things are the way they are, just another indicator of how different two post-Soviet countries are). I guess, I should've been more concise and just said that in an atomized society, uprising is considered to be an unlikely event - without trying to delve into reasons why Russian society is atomized.
- pshirshov 3y ago
  They aren't normal anymore. From my observations, 43 out of 51 people I questioned do support the war in various forms, many even making donations. It wasn't like that in the beginning but now they say that they have to. Even so-called opposition (pro-Navalny people) say things like "if Navalny was a president, we won't be humiliated because he would win the war quickly".
  - lionkor 3y ago
    Thats still not everyone, you see? Theres a massive difference between "everyone who is X is also Y" and "most people who are X are also Y", because the latter means that assuming everyone who is X is Y is discrimination no different from other kinds of discrimination from history.
- kubiton 3y ago
  Classy? Let's just take the responsibility of yourself and transfer it to some magic place called 'someone else's problem' and you get the shit we have today.