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This energy storage system near Helsinki, Finland operated by Helen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Oy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Oy) might be int

by iljah 3y ago

This energy storage system near Helsinki, Finland operated by Helen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Oy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Oy) might be interesting for HN readers. Some facts from previous article (https://www.helen.fi/en/news/2020/mustikkamaa https://www.helen.fi/en/news/2020/mustikkamaa), not sure which one would've been better in url field: District heat is stored in two rock caverns in Mustikkamaa. The temperature of the water in the caverns varies between 50 and 90 °C. The effective volume of the cavern storage facility is 260000 cubic metres and energy capacity about 11500 MWh. The charging and discharging capacity is 120 MW. The discharging or charging of the heat caverns at full power takes four days. The rock caverns will decrease Helen’s carbon dioxide emissions by 21000 tonnes per year. The stored heat can be used for balancing demand peaks and that way cutting fossil heat production, for example, in cold winter days.

Reason077 3y ago
This is a cool project, and I'm sure it has many benefits beyond just carbon savings. But 21,000 tonnes per year is surprisingly little in the scheme of things. Equivalent of about 150 or so long-haul 777 flights?
- cobaltoxide 3y ago
  That should tell you more about the energy intensity of a long-haul 777 flight.
- birger 3y ago
  Just for one city.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  If I’m reading this report correctly: https://julkaisut.hel.fi/en/reports/environmental-report-2021/environmental-indicators https://julkaisut.hel.fi/en/reports/environmental-report-202... It looks like the emissions for the Helsinki area are 2,345 kt per year, so I guess 21 kt is only a small part of that. Of course, no one project should be expected to solve everything! But it is depressing to see the scale of the problem.
  - SECProto 3y ago
    1% reduction from one project seems pretty decent to me. Especially when it's just from reusing pre-existing caverns from oil storage to decrease the district heat emissions. Heating emissions for a city at 60° North are a big challenge to reduce, and combined heat and power is a huge efficiency gain - the heat is otherwise wasted, and thermal emissions are an environmental issue in their own right. The emissions could be reduced much further if they decrease the 55% of their generation that comes from fossil fuel fired CHP plants[1], and increased their nuclear capacity from current 27% (unfortunately they had to cancel a plan to build another reactor because their partner was rosatom[2]) [1] https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland#Reactors_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland#React...
    - dharma1 3y ago
      Heating is perhaps unsurprisingly a large part of overall energy consumption in the Northern hemisphere. Helsinki shut down one coal plant used for district heating this spring and is shutting down the last remaining one next spring, well ahead of schedule. https://www.hel.fi/en/news/helen-phases-out-coal-more-than-five-years-ahead-of-schedule https://www.hel.fi/en/news/helen-phases-out-coal-more-than-f... I personally am bullish on deep geothermal - there was a pilot project near Helsinki which was unfortunately unsuccessful, but with cheaper new drilling tech (plasma etc) I think this can work out in the future. https://www.st1.com/st1s-otaniemi-geothermal-pilot-projects-deep-geothermal-wells-to-be-used-for-research https://www.st1.com/st1s-otaniemi-geothermal-pilot-projects-... There are also some startups looking to build small modular nuclear reactors for district heating - https://www.steadyenergy.com/ https://www.steadyenergy.com/
      - SECProto 3y ago
        Yep, deep geothermal would be cool, but not as mature. Was specifically advocating nuclear as it is basically a drop in replacement for fossil fuel in existing CHP plants. SMRs might work, though I am somewhat skeptical of anyone proposing "this brand new nuclear tech!" as a solution to difficulties constructing proven nuclear tech - we have decades of examples showing they basically swap one issue for another
- nikanj 3y ago
  That tells you how pointless all the at-home energy savings are when everyone and their dog flies to a weekend getaway every month
  - quacked 3y ago
    I know people who attend sit-in protests at Chase Bank locations over fossil fuel divestment who also fly internationally 3-4 times per year for pleasure. The cognitive dissonance and lack of engineering intuition among the general populace is staggering.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      I thought pleasure is more important than business. The only reason I do business at all is to feed my interest in doing whatever I like.
    - ForHackernews 3y ago
      If there were less investment in fossil fuel exploration, prices for fossil fuels could rise and airfare might be priced more appropriately. They would fly less because it cost more, or trains and boats might become more competitive. Moaning about individual "cognitive dissonance" is absolute nonsense when talking about global scale problems that require policy solutions. The activists' intuitions are more correct than yours, I'd wager. Climate change is not an engineering problem.
      - kortilla 3y ago
        Protesting Chase doesn’t stop investments. It just pushes them elsewhere. Those activists are morons and stopping their flights would do far more to help than to protest a single bank. If they were protesting the government to massively increase oil taxes then you might have a point. Alas, they don’t have any economic intuition.
        dylan604 3y ago
        If those protestors did not have tickets on those flights, somebody else would be able to purchase them. It's not like the plane isn't going to fly that route because of this. So whether the protesters fly or somebody else, the plane is still make the emissions you're concerned about.
- wildzzz 3y ago
  A reduction in foreign energy dependency is always nice to have. They can also use the geothermal to generate electricity. The carbon savings aren't that much but nearly free energy sources are nice to have.
euroderf 3y ago
> The temperature of the water in the caverns varies between 50 and 90 °C. Presumably 50 is in April or May and 90 is in August or September. Or are these swings shorter-term ?
- trenchgun 3y ago
  Yea that is one thing missing. Is it seasonal heat storage, or for balancing wind power?

by iljah 3y ago

Reason077 3y ago

This is a cool project, and I'm sure it has many benefits beyond just carbon savings. But 21,000 tonnes per year is surprisingly little in the scheme of things. Equivalent of about 150 or so long-haul 777 flights?

cobaltoxide 3y ago
That should tell you more about the energy intensity of a long-haul 777 flight.
birger 3y ago
Just for one city.
bee_rider 3y ago
If I’m reading this report correctly: https://julkaisut.hel.fi/en/reports/environmental-report-2021/environmental-indicators https://julkaisut.hel.fi/en/reports/environmental-report-202... It looks like the emissions for the Helsinki area are 2,345 kt per year, so I guess 21 kt is only a small part of that. Of course, no one project should be expected to solve everything! But it is depressing to see the scale of the problem.
- SECProto 3y ago
  1% reduction from one project seems pretty decent to me. Especially when it's just from reusing pre-existing caverns from oil storage to decrease the district heat emissions. Heating emissions for a city at 60° North are a big challenge to reduce, and combined heat and power is a huge efficiency gain - the heat is otherwise wasted, and thermal emissions are an environmental issue in their own right. The emissions could be reduced much further if they decrease the 55% of their generation that comes from fossil fuel fired CHP plants[1], and increased their nuclear capacity from current 27% (unfortunately they had to cancel a plan to build another reactor because their partner was rosatom[2]) [1] https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland#Reactors_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland#React...
  - dharma1 3y ago
    Heating is perhaps unsurprisingly a large part of overall energy consumption in the Northern hemisphere. Helsinki shut down one coal plant used for district heating this spring and is shutting down the last remaining one next spring, well ahead of schedule. https://www.hel.fi/en/news/helen-phases-out-coal-more-than-five-years-ahead-of-schedule https://www.hel.fi/en/news/helen-phases-out-coal-more-than-f... I personally am bullish on deep geothermal - there was a pilot project near Helsinki which was unfortunately unsuccessful, but with cheaper new drilling tech (plasma etc) I think this can work out in the future. https://www.st1.com/st1s-otaniemi-geothermal-pilot-projects-deep-geothermal-wells-to-be-used-for-research https://www.st1.com/st1s-otaniemi-geothermal-pilot-projects-... There are also some startups looking to build small modular nuclear reactors for district heating - https://www.steadyenergy.com/ https://www.steadyenergy.com/
    - SECProto 3y ago
      Yep, deep geothermal would be cool, but not as mature. Was specifically advocating nuclear as it is basically a drop in replacement for fossil fuel in existing CHP plants. SMRs might work, though I am somewhat skeptical of anyone proposing "this brand new nuclear tech!" as a solution to difficulties constructing proven nuclear tech - we have decades of examples showing they basically swap one issue for another
nikanj 3y ago
That tells you how pointless all the at-home energy savings are when everyone and their dog flies to a weekend getaway every month
- quacked 3y ago
  I know people who attend sit-in protests at Chase Bank locations over fossil fuel divestment who also fly internationally 3-4 times per year for pleasure. The cognitive dissonance and lack of engineering intuition among the general populace is staggering.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    I thought pleasure is more important than business. The only reason I do business at all is to feed my interest in doing whatever I like.
  - ForHackernews 3y ago
    If there were less investment in fossil fuel exploration, prices for fossil fuels could rise and airfare might be priced more appropriately. They would fly less because it cost more, or trains and boats might become more competitive. Moaning about individual "cognitive dissonance" is absolute nonsense when talking about global scale problems that require policy solutions. The activists' intuitions are more correct than yours, I'd wager. Climate change is not an engineering problem.
    - kortilla 3y ago
      Protesting Chase doesn’t stop investments. It just pushes them elsewhere. Those activists are morons and stopping their flights would do far more to help than to protest a single bank. If they were protesting the government to massively increase oil taxes then you might have a point. Alas, they don’t have any economic intuition.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        If those protestors did not have tickets on those flights, somebody else would be able to purchase them. It's not like the plane isn't going to fly that route because of this. So whether the protesters fly or somebody else, the plane is still make the emissions you're concerned about.
wildzzz 3y ago
A reduction in foreign energy dependency is always nice to have. They can also use the geothermal to generate electricity. The carbon savings aren't that much but nearly free energy sources are nice to have.

euroderf 3y ago

> The temperature of the water in the caverns varies between 50 and 90 °C. Presumably 50 is in April or May and 90 is in August or September. Or are these swings shorter-term ?

trenchgun 3y ago
Yea that is one thing missing. Is it seasonal heat storage, or for balancing wind power?