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You could say the same about SSL/TLS. Why don't we just pass laws that make spying/wiretapping illegal, and then send our passwords over the wire in plaintext?

You could say the same about SSL/TLS. Why don't we just pass laws that make spying/wiretapping illegal, and then send our passwords over the wire in plaintext? Privacy is a people problem, but we can still fight for it using tech. Tech won't solve all our problems, but it can definitely solve some. I view bitcoin as on the same layer as TLS. The spirit of the internet was corrupted by Facebook/Google/etc, but the underlying tech still works. The spirit of bitcoin was corrupted by the exchanges and speculators, but the underlying tech still works. Both give you the power to take back some of the power that ordinary citizens have lost—if you know how to avoid the bad parts.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
You're entitled to your perception, but not an outcome. Laws around value transfer, KYC, AML, consumer finance, etc exist current state. Fail to observe them at your own peril [1] [2]. TLS and in transit data encryption are legal and unencumbered, so viewing them at parity with systems like Bitcoin is not accurate. Broadly speaking, data privacy is legal, monetary privacy is regulated (except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits). FinCEN, SARs, etc for US specific examples. An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. Do not pass go. Go directly to jail. OSI layers. [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum-developer-virgil-griffith-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-north-korea-trip/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
  A bank freezing your account doesn't mean you've done something illegal. It means you've been caught in a bureaucratic machine that cares nothing for human outcomes.[1] If a bank tells me I can't move my legally-obtained money, and I have the power to say "screw the bureaucratic machine" and transact anyway, that's a win for society. > An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. In either case, follow the laws, pay your taxes, and you'll be fine. I'd rather deal with the IRS directly than argue over the phone with a customer service representative from Chase. [1]: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    > You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. As I mentioned, cash has reporting requirements above small amounts ("except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits") [1]. Chainalysis exists as a business to provide reporting to governments for crypto transfers [2]. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021/fil21012c.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021... [2] https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/ https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/
    - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
      I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. Governments pay companies to investigate people breaking the law with both cash and bitcoin. Cash and bitcoin are both coexisting just fine with existing financial regulations.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        > I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. I am only commenting to warn others, as this is absolutely not true, and you have a dangerous misunderstanding of financial regulations. You would not be told if a report was filed, to do so is illegal. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-cash-payments-over-10000-received-in-a-trade-or-business-motor-vehicle-dealership-qas https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf > Generally, any person in a trade or business who receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or related transactions must complete a Form 8300, Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or BusinessPDF. Form 8300 is a joint form issued by the IRS and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) and is used by the government to track individuals that evade taxes and those who profit from criminal activities. Although the cash reporting requirements apply to many types of businesses, auto dealerships frequently receive cash in excess of $10,000 and are required to comply with the filing requirements. > Penalties. You may be subject to penalties if you fail to file a correct and complete Form 8300 on time and you cannot show that the failure was due to reasonable cause. You may also be subject to penalties if you fail to furnish timely a correct and complete statement to each person named in a required report. A minimum penalty of $25,000 may be imposed if the failure is due to an intentional or willful disregard of the cash reporting requirements. > Penalties may also be imposed for causing, or attempting to cause, a trade or business to fail to file a required report; for causing, or attempting to cause, a trade or business to file a required report containing a material omission or misstatement of fact; or for structuring, or attempting to structure, transactions to avoid the reporting requirements. These violations may also be subject to criminal prosecution which, upon conviction, may result in imprisonment of up to 5 years or fines of up to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for corporations or both.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

You're entitled to your perception, but not an outcome. Laws around value transfer, KYC, AML, consumer finance, etc exist current state. Fail to observe them at your own peril [1] [2]. TLS and in transit data encryption are legal and unencumbered, so viewing them at parity with systems like Bitcoin is not accurate. Broadly speaking, data privacy is legal, monetary privacy is regulated (except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits). FinCEN, SARs, etc for US specific examples. An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. Do not pass go. Go directly to jail. OSI layers. [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum-developer-virgil-griffith-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-north-korea-trip/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...

ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
A bank freezing your account doesn't mean you've done something illegal. It means you've been caught in a bureaucratic machine that cares nothing for human outcomes.[1] If a bank tells me I can't move my legally-obtained money, and I have the power to say "screw the bureaucratic machine" and transact anyway, that's a win for society. > An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. In either case, follow the laws, pay your taxes, and you'll be fine. I'd rather deal with the IRS directly than argue over the phone with a customer service representative from Chase. [1]: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  > You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. As I mentioned, cash has reporting requirements above small amounts ("except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits") [1]. Chainalysis exists as a business to provide reporting to governments for crypto transfers [2]. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021/fil21012c.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021... [2] https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/ https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/
  - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
    I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. Governments pay companies to investigate people breaking the law with both cash and bitcoin. Cash and bitcoin are both coexisting just fine with existing financial regulations.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      > I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. I am only commenting to warn others, as this is absolutely not true, and you have a dangerous misunderstanding of financial regulations. You would not be told if a report was filed, to do so is illegal. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-cash-payments-over-10000-received-in-a-trade-or-business-motor-vehicle-dealership-qas https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8300.pdf > Generally, any person in a trade or business who receives more than $10,000 in cash in a single transaction or related transactions must complete a Form 8300, Report of Cash Payments Over $10,000 Received in a Trade or BusinessPDF. Form 8300 is a joint form issued by the IRS and the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) and is used by the government to track individuals that evade taxes and those who profit from criminal activities. Although the cash reporting requirements apply to many types of businesses, auto dealerships frequently receive cash in excess of $10,000 and are required to comply with the filing requirements. > Penalties. You may be subject to penalties if you fail to file a correct and complete Form 8300 on time and you cannot show that the failure was due to reasonable cause. You may also be subject to penalties if you fail to furnish timely a correct and complete statement to each person named in a required report. A minimum penalty of $25,000 may be imposed if the failure is due to an intentional or willful disregard of the cash reporting requirements. > Penalties may also be imposed for causing, or attempting to cause, a trade or business to fail to file a required report; for causing, or attempting to cause, a trade or business to file a required report containing a material omission or misstatement of fact; or for structuring, or attempting to structure, transactions to avoid the reporting requirements. These violations may also be subject to criminal prosecution which, upon conviction, may result in imprisonment of up to 5 years or fines of up to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for corporations or both.