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It is not Bitcoin that is the problem. It is the banks that are the problem. Bitcoin is not the perfect bankless system of money that you might hope. But cry

It is not Bitcoin that is the problem. It is the banks that are the problem. Bitcoin is not the perfect bankless system of money that you might hope. But cryptocurrency is one step closer to making that happen. With cryptocurrency, there is an option to transact digitally outside of the government. That didn't exist before.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
People trying to solve people problems with tech problems are sad when reality sets in and they discover the code is just a tool, not an enforcement mechanism or power structure that can override people. It is an OSI layer misunderstanding. Money is the currency of trust. People and trust.
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
  You could say the same about SSL/TLS. Why don't we just pass laws that make spying/wiretapping illegal, and then send our passwords over the wire in plaintext? Privacy is a people problem, but we can still fight for it using tech. Tech won't solve all our problems, but it can definitely solve some. I view bitcoin as on the same layer as TLS. The spirit of the internet was corrupted by Facebook/Google/etc, but the underlying tech still works. The spirit of bitcoin was corrupted by the exchanges and speculators, but the underlying tech still works. Both give you the power to take back some of the power that ordinary citizens have lost—if you know how to avoid the bad parts.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    You're entitled to your perception, but not an outcome. Laws around value transfer, KYC, AML, consumer finance, etc exist current state. Fail to observe them at your own peril [1] [2]. TLS and in transit data encryption are legal and unencumbered, so viewing them at parity with systems like Bitcoin is not accurate. Broadly speaking, data privacy is legal, monetary privacy is regulated (except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits). FinCEN, SARs, etc for US specific examples. An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. Do not pass go. Go directly to jail. OSI layers. [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum-developer-virgil-griffith-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-north-korea-trip/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...
    - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
      A bank freezing your account doesn't mean you've done something illegal. It means you've been caught in a bureaucratic machine that cares nothing for human outcomes.[1] If a bank tells me I can't move my legally-obtained money, and I have the power to say "screw the bureaucratic machine" and transact anyway, that's a win for society. > An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. In either case, follow the laws, pay your taxes, and you'll be fine. I'd rather deal with the IRS directly than argue over the phone with a customer service representative from Chase. [1]: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        > You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. As I mentioned, cash has reporting requirements above small amounts ("except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits") [1]. Chainalysis exists as a business to provide reporting to governments for crypto transfers [2]. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021/fil21012c.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021... [2] https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/ https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/
        ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
        I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. Governments pay companies to investigate people breaking the law with both cash and bitcoin. Cash and bitcoin are both coexisting just fine with existing financial regulations.
        3y ago
- joshspankit 3y ago
  “Money is a database for exchange of goods & services.“ This is more true in the last couple decades than it ever has been
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I don't believe in solving people problems with people. This is how big money has had the population in a stranglehold forever.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

toomuchtodo 3y ago

People trying to solve people problems with tech problems are sad when reality sets in and they discover the code is just a tool, not an enforcement mechanism or power structure that can override people. It is an OSI layer misunderstanding. Money is the currency of trust. People and trust.

ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
You could say the same about SSL/TLS. Why don't we just pass laws that make spying/wiretapping illegal, and then send our passwords over the wire in plaintext? Privacy is a people problem, but we can still fight for it using tech. Tech won't solve all our problems, but it can definitely solve some. I view bitcoin as on the same layer as TLS. The spirit of the internet was corrupted by Facebook/Google/etc, but the underlying tech still works. The spirit of bitcoin was corrupted by the exchanges and speculators, but the underlying tech still works. Both give you the power to take back some of the power that ordinary citizens have lost—if you know how to avoid the bad parts.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  You're entitled to your perception, but not an outcome. Laws around value transfer, KYC, AML, consumer finance, etc exist current state. Fail to observe them at your own peril [1] [2]. TLS and in transit data encryption are legal and unencumbered, so viewing them at parity with systems like Bitcoin is not accurate. Broadly speaking, data privacy is legal, monetary privacy is regulated (except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits). FinCEN, SARs, etc for US specific examples. An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. Do not pass go. Go directly to jail. OSI layers. [1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum-developer-virgil-griffith-sentenced-to-5-years-in-prison-for-north-korea-trip/ https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...
  - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
    A bank freezing your account doesn't mean you've done something illegal. It means you've been caught in a bureaucratic machine that cares nothing for human outcomes.[1] If a bank tells me I can't move my legally-obtained money, and I have the power to say "screw the bureaucratic machine" and transact anyway, that's a win for society. > An unregulated, distributed transfer of value system is unable to coexist with nation state regulations and desires to control the currency. You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. In either case, follow the laws, pay your taxes, and you'll be fine. I'd rather deal with the IRS directly than argue over the phone with a customer service representative from Chase. [1]: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      > You mean cash? Bitcoin is no more or less illegal than cash. As I mentioned, cash has reporting requirements above small amounts ("except in small fiat amounts under cash reporting limits") [1]. Chainalysis exists as a business to provide reporting to governments for crypto transfers [2]. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021/fil21012c.pdf https://www.fdic.gov/news/financial-institution-letters/2021... [2] https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/ https://www.chainalysis.com/regulators/
      - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
        I paid for my car in cash, and nobody batted an eye. Car dealerships are not subject to banking regulations, only banks are. I don't know why people think that would suddenly change once bitcoin gets involved. Governments pay companies to investigate people breaking the law with both cash and bitcoin. Cash and bitcoin are both coexisting just fine with existing financial regulations.
        3y ago
joshspankit 3y ago
“Money is a database for exchange of goods & services.“ This is more true in the last couple decades than it ever has been
wkat4242 3y ago
I don't believe in solving people problems with people. This is how big money has had the population in a stranglehold forever.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]