3 ms·

> When trump was elected, are EU countries supposed to hope he doesn't leak their critical intel the US already has to putin? Yeah so people in Europe are real

• _8j50 3y ago
  > Yeah so people in Europe are really upset of US wiretapping because they don't trust the US government with that information, is it really that difficult to wrap your head around that concept? No, that was never in dispute though, strawman argument? > A lot of people in Europe believe that the US hardly ever have had a good candidate, and that Trump is just another addition of a long list of despicable presidents. So if you imagine how it would feel like if you tought every US government is as shocking as the Trump administration, you might start to understand how people outside of the US feels about this, if that is of any interest to you of course Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US? > Which some people would consider manipulating someone to commit high treason. Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets. Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump. Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically. But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff.
  • rijoja 3y ago
    > No, that was never in dispute though, strawman argument? Well that was the point that I was trying to convey, I'm glad that we are in agreement. > Treason is betrayal as it applies to aiding an enemy, not a trusted ally. And almost never in times of peace. The specific term is espionage not treason. But still a betrayal of trust. Usually assets are just waiting to be bought, it's better for an ally to buy them instead of a hostile country/agent. Lookup the CIA MICE acronym on how to develop assets. The person who sells the classified information would obviously be the one that commits treason, not the spy agency. > Are you saying if the US president was nicer, US spying would be acceptable? Or are you making my argument for me that precisely for the reasons you mentioned, european intel agencies are spying in/against the US? What I am trying to say is that since there is no guarantee that the next president will be good it would be wise never to accept intrusive spying. No I don't think spy agencies should wiretap the phones of their allies leaders, if they are allies. That would be dishonorable and shameful. Collecting intelligence can still be done through other means of course. The information in the link below, for instance is probably not collected trough wiretapping: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/angola/summaries/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/angola/summ... > Think about it this way, not much has changed between EU and US relations even after snowden reveals and trump. Yeah which I think reflects really unfavorably on the politicians in both the EU and the US. > Ultimately the interests of both parties are largely aligned and intertwined and embarassments like the US spying solved diplomatically. Diplomacy can still be based on threats of violence, so that doesn't really impress me very much. > But what concerns me is much of both US and EU is too many generarions removed from the chaos of the old world. They are not aware of the treasure of peace and friendly relations we all enjoy. We are debating over a website instead of with bullets from foxholes and the current state of spying is largely a reaction to WW2 and the cold war. It can change both for better and worse, so vote for foreign ministers that will relfect your views and priorities so they can solve this stuff. People in Ukraine, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen and many more, might not agree with that. Furthermore Europe is being overrun by refuges created by the turmoil which also seem to point to the fact that things aren't that stable. You could also argue that during the USSR all the countries in that sphere where living in peace, others would say that they where living in fear of the secret police.